|
Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Dec 25, 2009 20:01:38 GMT -8
I'll try to lay out my logic here. I believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant word of God. Therefore, I cannot hold to a works based salvation when the Bible so many times excludes works as a basis for salvation. Salvation is not of ourselves Paul says, in order that we should not boast! If we worked for our salvation, then we have reason to boast. But Paul says this: Boasting is excluded! Why? Because salvation is wholly of God and not of ourselves. Do you see why I have then come to my conclusion? I don't really follow your reasoning here. If I do good works, then I have a reason to boast... so I will not receive salvation? However, if you have a strong relationship with God/Jesus, you also will have a reason to testify, a reason to sing for joy, and a reason to boast. So, based on your reasoning, you too will (not) receive salvation? Salvation and Grace comes from God, who you believe is constant. So, what happens to folks who lived before Jesus arrived? Is God's Grace constant (limited)? Will he not look at the works, and hearts, of those who happened to live before the time of Jesus? In the Gospels, Jesus says that you judge a tree based on its fruit. A good tree produces good fruit, good works.... However, you are saying that Paul says something different, that salvation can not be achieved based on what one has done. Antonioe, you have said that a work-based salvation can not occur because "Salvation is wholly of God and not of ourselves," so if salvation is wholly of God, how can Paul claim to know who (and why) God will choose to show mercy and grace towards? Btw, which verses does Paul make his proclamation? My view is that Grace is mysterious and amazing, and since I'm not God, I don't know how it will work. Now, I know the Bible contains letters written by Paul. Isn't Paul just a church leader of his day? I don't want to turn Paul into an infallible pope so... -CG
|
|
|
Post by antonioe1778 on Dec 31, 2009 12:44:31 GMT -8
I don't really follow your reasoning here. If I do good works, then I have a reason to boast... so I will not receive salvation? According to the Bible, and specifically the book of Romans, no. If you personally think you can earn righteousness apart from God. However, if you have a strong relationship with God/Jesus, you also will have a reason to testify, a reason to sing for joy, and a reason to boast. So, based on your reasoning, you too will (not) receive salvation? With my reasoning (and Paul's), if God works our salvation through and through without help from us, then we do have a reason to boast, but not in ourselves! Paul does say that he boasts in Christ and in His salvation. However, said boasting is not over something he did, so he is not giving himself any glory. You see In the Gospels, Jesus says that you judge a tree based on its fruit. A good tree produces good fruit, good works.... However, you are saying that Paul says something different, that salvation can not be achieved based on what one has done. You will know those who are truly ALREADY saved by their fruits. If they do not have fruits you cannot know whether they are truly saved (according to John, "of God"). What Paul and Jesus said was not contradictory, but rather complementary. Antonioe, you have said that a work-based salvation can not occur because "Salvation is wholly of God and not of ourselves," so if salvation is wholly of God, how can Paul claim to know who (and why) God will choose to show mercy and grace towards? He never claims to know. Btw, which verses does Paul make his proclamation? Read the Epistle of Paul to the Romans (among others). Ephesians 2 is another good one. Now, I know the Bible contains letters written by Paul. Isn't Paul just a church leader of his day? I don't want to turn Paul into an infallible pope so... -CG No, Paul was not an infallible pope, but I believe that his writings as contained in the Bible's New Testament are, just as the rest of the Holy Bible.
|
|