|
Post by Jangles on Dec 14, 2009 21:06:11 GMT -8
To answer your question, it's taught that God's ability to forgive actually DOESN'T have a bound. There is some popular bible verse (something about 7 times 7) that states this. Why can't someone be forgiven for the same thing multiple times anyway? That is like a condition of human nature - to make the same mistakes over and over. If you are worried about someone not repeating evil deeds, talk to the judicial system, not God Honestly guys, believe what you want and if God is the God that religion says that he is, then he probably doesn't care either way, despite what some of religious doctrines may teach. Kind of the point that I think anotine is making is that believing in God just makes it easier for some people to be a good person in life, though we know it can also make you a preaching nutcase too... As far as that one thing being too heavy too touch, what exactly do you mean? I think that one very simple statement sums up perfectly the contradiction.
|
|
|
Post by Jangles on Dec 14, 2009 21:12:50 GMT -8
It basically comes down to what it means to "believe." Can an adulterer (see Tiger Woods) belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and still commit acts of adultery? -Carlton Maybe - but one thing Tiger Woods CAN do is drive dangerously and crash his car into a tree and only have to pay $164 plus 4 points on license, while someone who drives with their brights on on a one-lane road with a speed limit of 25mph that they aren't familiar with will also have to pay $164 plus 4 points on their license for failing to dim the brights for a parked police car at the freaking police station. This coming from the same cops who pull over people going 27mph in a 25mph zone and issuing a warning (since you can't legally give someone a ticket unless it's at least 5 over). But whatever, it's all cool.
|
|
|
Post by antonioe1778 on Dec 14, 2009 21:20:11 GMT -8
Antonioe, I'm not trying to take you out of context, but if someone has nothing to show except for their beliefs, will they still be "saved?" If that person has nothing to show, then whether he truly believes should immediately be called into question (i.e. it is doubtful whether he/she actually does. 1st John). I, too, believe that a follower of Jesus -- one who lives by the Golden Rule -- would be less inclined to commit bad deeds, but The Gospel of John and Romans present a problem. I often hear folks quote John 3:16 "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, and whosoever shall believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." It basically comes down to what it means to "believe." Can an adulterer (see Tiger Woods) belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and still commit acts of adultery? Priests, who have harmed little ones (see the Catholic Church molestation cases), can they still receive salvation based on what they believe about Jesus? Nobody is perfect. Everybody commits sins, and some more heinous than most. If salvation were based on some scale of human works then all would go to hell, am I wrong? This is where I believe that grace enters into the picture. It is only in this state that grace is needed. Once somebody realizes the grace which they have received and accepted (I'm assuming you know the general facets of just what protestant christians believe that salvation is), then they will cease the heinous evil which they have committed. Read the book of 1st John, for it clearly states that somebody who makes a practice of sinning is not God's, even though he may claim to be.
|
|
|
Post by Jon Broxton on Dec 14, 2009 22:02:46 GMT -8
I have to admit I'm finding this theological discussion absolutely fascinating and I want to commend everyone who has posted here for being intelligent, calm, and non-confrontational Keep it up! So, yes, Carlton basically summed up my thoughts more succinctly than I did: it's the double-standard that makes no sense to me. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen rapists and murderers 'repent' while in prison, only to commit crimes again once they come out of jail... but yet under contemporary Christian dogma, they would face judgement in the afterlife (assuming there is one) equally alongside people like me, who do not believe in god, but who has tried to lead a good life and never done anything more illegal than driving too fast. Is this really fair? Or maybe they wouldn't be judged equally? If what you say is true, and that true Christians don't commit murder and rape, then that obviously means that people who do these things, but THINK they are Christians... THEY believe that they are Christians... are actually NOT Christians, because their actions say otherwise. It's very complicated.
|
|
ddueck
Ghostwriter
Omnia dicta fortiori, si dicta Latina!
Posts: 245
|
Post by ddueck on Dec 15, 2009 3:32:23 GMT -8
Or maybe they wouldn't be judged equally? If what you say is true, and that true Christians don't commit murder and rape, then that obviously means that people who do these things, but THINK they are Christians... THEY believe that they are Christians... are actually NOT Christians, because their actions say otherwise. It's very complicated. It can be. Other times, and perhaps this is more often the case, it's as simple as someone SAYING they are a Christian for appearances' sake - hypocrites, who say one thing to try to "look good" but live something totally opposite. They usually end up making themselves - and anyone else who calls themselves Christians - look much worse in the long run. I've been vilified as a Christian because of hypocrisy in others' lives far more often than I care to remember.
|
|
|
Post by chollman on Dec 15, 2009 8:01:37 GMT -8
I am currently trying to find my own faith. I was agnostic/atheistic for most of my young adulthood; but when I started dating my current fiance, she was strongly Christian. After many, many, talks with her about strange beliefs and problems that can be amplified by certain 'stereotypical' christians and some churches, I decided I needed to take a better look at it all.
I have currently been reading a few books about faith and finding God and Jesus. For anyone who has doubts as to the Bible's authenticity, historical context of the Bible, problems with contradictions in the Bible, and all of that sort of stuff I would heartily recommend checking out The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel and Letters from a Skeptic by Greg Boyd. These two books have helped immensely in discovering that Christianity is not a big hoax, that the Bible can be trusted and is wholly reliable. They also explain alot about misconceptions about the Church. Another book Unchristian by Kinnaman and Lyons takes on direct misconceptions and popular beliefs that are rampant throughout America about Christians.
For instance, I always had a problem with people in the Church for the fact that I wasn't a christian. They didn't try to 'save' me, they didn't even want to help me; instead, they cast me aside and told me I was going to burn in hell unless I found Jesus. Well, how in the hell am I supposed to find Jesus and learn about Christ is the ones who are supposed to be there for me and help me aren't willing to?! Major misperceptions about Christ and the way to follow him were some of the biggest stumbling blocks I had about the whole thing.
I don't get (and it bothers me to no end that people act like this when they supposedly 'follow Christ') why some Christians are SO judgemental and hurtful and angry and are just bigots. When I used to think of Christians I thought of gay-haters and child molesters. That was my entire perception of the Church. It was not until I started digging into the beliefs and concepts of Christ that I realized that these people have it completely wrong. God is the one who will judge at the final hours; we do not have a right to judge others and condemn them for their beliefs. We cannot see into other's heart and soul as God can.
I believe that believing in God (something that I have only recently come into) is only the first step. The next step is learning and coming to terms with what Jesus taught us; not with what other people say he taught us. We have to go out and learn for ourselves what it is that the Bible says. Don't take other people's words for it, read all you can. Sure, I don't agree with everything that those books I mentioned above talk about--but that is what this is all about. You must have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God himself. This relationship is built upon personal prayer (not just petitionary prayer) and communication. Reading the Bible is only a part of it (as i am just beginning to learn).
I know that this post was pretty long and there is more I would like to say, but that's all that is coming to me right now. I am still on this journey of discovering Christ and haven't fully accepted all of it yet, but I am trying to.
|
|
|
Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Dec 15, 2009 22:04:17 GMT -8
Maybe - but one thing Tiger Woods CAN do is drive dangerously and crash his car into a tree and only have to pay $164 plus 4 points on license, while someone who drives with their brights on on a one-lane road with a speed limit of 25mph that they aren't familiar with will also have to pay $164 plus 4 points on their license for failing to dim the brights for a parked police car at the freaking police station. This coming from the same cops who pull over people going 27mph in a 25mph zone and issuing a warning (since you can't legally give someone a ticket unless it's at least 5 over). But whatever, it's all cool. Hey, have the cops been after you in FL? ;D -CG
|
|
|
Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Dec 15, 2009 22:55:10 GMT -8
As far as that one thing being too heavy too touch, what exactly do you mean? I think that one very simple statement sums up perfectly the contradiction. I didn't want to pick up your statement that "it's stupid (and un-Christian) for an all-loving God to send non-believers to hell just because they don't 'believe' in Jesus because this contradicts the whole godly notion of love and grace." Jangles, I don't want to burn my hands... ;D Speaking of grace... Nobody is perfect. Everybody commits sins, and some more heinous than most. If salvation were based on some scale of human works then all would go to hell, am I wrong? This is where I believe that grace enters into the picture. It is only in this state that grace is needed. Yes, humans are imperfect and we are repeat sinners regardless of our beliefs... But a scale shows us that there are some people who do more good than others -- people who show more love (and compassion) toward others. Is grace not going to fall on those "good" people who didn't know Jesus or who didn't believe that he was a God who died for their sins? I should point out that a non-Christian tree can produce good fruit... Anyway, is it incorrect for me to assume that based on parts of John and Romans that "no one will get to the Father except through the Son," that non-believers are doomed to be excluded from an afterlife, with God, because they have "denied" Jesus? Now, I haven't read 1John. Antonioe, I'll put it on the "to read" list. However, I think Jangles brings up a good point about human nature. Antonioe, you can belief that once someone accepts grace and repents, then he/she will give up their "bad" behaviors, but human nature tells us something else. Humans will always sin and turn their backs on God. Does this mean that no one can be a Christian, or really know God, or claim to be with God because they will always "practice" sinning due to the human condition? Honestly guys, believe what you want and if God is the God that religion says that he is, then he probably doesn't care either way, despite what some of religious doctrines may teach. Kind of the point that I think anotine is making is that believing in God just makes it easier for some people to be a good person in life, though we know it can also make you a preaching nutcase too... If, if, if I love Jesus more than anything else, more than his Father, will the jealous God of the Old Testament strike me down? After all, one can not serve two masters... I don't mean to sound like a nutcase, but I think "ifs" and "beliefs" are irrelevant. What's important is your own personal relationship with "God." While the Bible can be useful, it shouldn't limit your views on God based on the dogma that is found in it. How many Christan's attempt to follow all of the rules in the Bible (particularly the OT) anyway? Anyway, I agree with Kevin We have to go out and learn for ourselves what it is that the Bible says. Don't take other people's words for it, read all you can. Sure, I don't agree with everything that those books [including the Bible,] I mentioned above talk about--but that is what this is all about. You must have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God himself. This relationship is built upon personal prayer (not just petitionary prayer) and communication. Reading the Bible is only a part of it (as i am just beginning to learn).
|
|
|
Post by Hook on Dec 19, 2009 14:47:18 GMT -8
This thread has absorbed me somehow. The internet is strange. I want to contribute some more (mainly, asking questions to really inform myself of other people's understanding of faith) and clear some things with antonio, and reiterate yet again that tensions between me and Australia are in the "pretty cool" sector. But first, something from an unrelated thread posted by someone who hasn't participated here about a movie that has nothing to do with Christianity: Sorry to say, cheno, but the good and ill (on both sides) of what happened during the colonization of the Americas hundreds of years ago is out of your hands and is out of my hands. We are where we are and I'm tired of liberal filmmakers using their money, technology, power, and liberalized understanding of history to film hundred million dollar projects that condemn... money, technology, power, and liberalized understanding of history. It would be a breath of fresh air if they actually walked their talk or just stuck with making entertainment that provokes thought on a universal philosophical level and not one based entirely around that filmmaker's own political and social agenda. I feel like Jocko whenever I see this guy: My beef here is not the usual (it's not about the molesting, the Crusades, the Peter over Jesus, the contraception ban, the fact the guy dresses like Walter Mercado and looks like Emperor Palpatine). The thing that irks me the most is he has the attention of over 1,000,000,000 people on Earth, lives in a mansion surrounded by works of art created by some of the best minds in history, in his own sovereign State, his own friggin' kingdom from which he claims to speak for the guy whose kingdom is not of this world, and all this for the prize of no accomplishment whatsoever. (<----- opinion) He condemns Capitalism in his speeches for its excess, its exclusion of the poor, and pronounced impact on the environment. Yet, in my mind, the world's two top richest billionaires, born and raised in capitalism central, have done more for the poor than he has. And they are way more humble about it than he is. C'mon, let's compare: Bill Gates' house: With actual, breathing treesScary guy's house: R2 units in the front, I think I see a stormtrooper in the backThis kind of thing drives me insane. I know Catholicism isn't big in America and that most of you are not Catholic, but I'm interested to know how you guys feel about your own faith mirrored in this fashion, or even if you think it is. In my opinion, these guys have it right: www.adventisthealthsystem.com/Default.aspx
|
|
|
Post by antonioe1778 on Dec 20, 2009 13:05:35 GMT -8
My beef here is not the usual (it's not about the molesting, the Crusades, the Peter over Jesus, the contraception ban, the fact the guy dresses like Walter Mercado and looks like Emperor Palpatine). The thing that irks me the most is he has the attention of over 1,000,000,000 people on Earth, lives in a mansion surrounded by works of art created by some of the best minds in history, in his own sovereign State, his own friggin' kingdom from which he claims to speak for the guy whose kingdom is not of this world, and all this for the prize of no accomplishment whatsoever. (<----- opinion) He condemns Capitalism in his speeches for its excess, its exclusion of the poor, and pronounced impact on the environment. Yet, in my mind, the world's two top richest billionaires, born and raised in capitalism central, have done more for the poor than he has. And they are way more humble about it than he is. C'mon, let's compare: Bill Gates' house: With actual, breathing treesScary guy's house: R2 units in the front, I think I see a stormtrooper in the backThis kind of thing drives me insane. I know Catholicism isn't big in America and that most of you are not Catholic, but I'm interested to know how you guys feel about your own faith mirrored in this fashion, or even if you think it is. In my opinion, these guys have it right: www.adventisthealthsystem.com/Default.aspxI, as a Protestant Christian, do not hold to the Catholic faith. There are too many doctrines which they hold to (Papal Infallibility, Purgatory, Works-based salvation, etc...) that are not in the Bible and as I believe that the Bible is the only authority for life and is infallible, inspired, and innerrant, I cannot hold to the Catholic faith. Yes, we exist
|
|
|
Post by Craig Richard Lysy on Dec 20, 2009 13:30:43 GMT -8
Alonso - This kind of thing drives me insane. I know Catholicism isn't big in America and that most of you are not Catholic, but I'm interested to know how you guys feel about your own faith mirrored in this fashion, or even if you think it is. Actually, Catholicism is big and is the fastest growing denomination in America due to Hispanic immigration and birth rates. No criticism should be construed. May I offer, that if you judge religions by the behavior of its devotees and clergy, all religions would stand damned. People are imperfect and too often religion has been used as an instrument of power; power for Self or power over others. That is why I long ago turned from my Roman Catholic faith and now pursue a more eastern or gnostic Christian approach which I describe as a personal quest for the Devine unfettered by clergy, dogma or ritual. I think we would all be better served turning the critical lens inward, rather than outward. As the prophet Gandhi once said, "If there is a devil, then he resides within our hearts, and that is where we must wage battle." Take care.
|
|
|
Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Dec 20, 2009 18:16:23 GMT -8
My beef here is not the usual (it's not about the molesting, the Crusades, the Peter over Jesus, the contraception ban, the fact the guy dresses like Walter Mercado and looks like Emperor Palpatine). The thing that irks me the most is he has the attention of over 1,000,000,000 people on Earth, lives in a mansion surrounded by works of art created by some of the best minds in history, in his own sovereign State, his own friggin' kingdom from which he claims to speak for the guy whose kingdom is not of this world, and all this for the prize of no accomplishment whatsoever. (<----- opinion) Well, the pope has given up everything he knew, so that he could travel down a road with Jesus, preaching the Gospels and the teachings of Paul. The thing is that the Pope has nothing personally, except for a cool ring and hat, and a vehicle for dodging bullets. ;D The Church has given him these things - a mansion, artwork, and a wealthy lifestyle- so that he can be more effective in promoting the ways of the canonical Gospels and the Church. The pope can not exist in a capitalistic vacuum; therefore, he needs money, donations to spend, so that the Church and by extension, Jesus, is able to survive and attack the social pariahs of the day (think of abortion and gay marriage). The thing is that we do not know how or how much money, the Catholic Church spends. I've tried to google it, but my G-searches tend to die after 1 or 2 pages. I did come across this article which mentions that " The Catholic Church is actually the largest non-governmental institution in the United States. It's the largest operator of private schools, for example. It runs over 200 colleges. And by some measures it's the largest charity in the U.S. So a great deal is at stake because of this scandal." You mean this fashion: How does any Christian reconcile his own personal wealth with the concept of Christianity? The concept of giving up worldly possessions so you can be with Jesus and God, the concept of loving God MORE than anything else, more than money, and capitalistic possesions... Damn, you mean I have to go down South to find Jesus and free health care. Now, I don't want to drudge up an old debate, but are the doctors at these institutions providing better health care than the capitalistic doctors at, say, St. Barnabas hospital? -CG
|
|
|
Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Dec 20, 2009 18:31:41 GMT -8
I, as a Protestant Christian, do not hold to the Catholic faith. There are too many doctrines which they hold to (Papal Infallibility, Purgatory, Works-based salvation, etc...) that are not in the Bible and as I believe that the Bible is the only authority for life and is infallible, inspired, and innerrant, I cannot hold to the Catholic faith. Yes, we exist So, you don't believe in works-based salvation? I'm going to HELL. Antonioe, how did the Bible come to be... I mean how did those particular books (and the philosophies within them) come to be included in the Bible? How did the canonical gospels come to be the "Holy" Bible? Didn't the "church" leaders of the day decide which books, which viewpoints would be, as you say, "the only authority for life and is infallible, inspired, and innerrant"? Anyway, I'm curious to know why you would oppose works-based salvation. Shouldn't a tree be judged by its fruit? (Matthew 7:17-19) -CG PS: Arrr, my clothes should be burning in the dryer. Gotta go.
|
|
|
Post by antonioe1778 on Dec 22, 2009 16:01:23 GMT -8
So, you don't believe in works-based salvation? I'm going to HELL. Antonioe, how did the Bible come to be... I mean how did those particular books (and the philosophies within them) come to be included in the Bible? How did the canonical gospels come to be the "Holy" Bible? Didn't the "church" leaders of the day decide which books, which viewpoints would be, as you say, "the only authority for life and is infallible, inspired, and innerrant"? Anyway, I'm curious to know why you would oppose works-based salvation. Shouldn't a tree be judged by its fruit? (Matthew 7:17-19) -CG I'll try to lay out my logic here. I believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant word of God. Therefore, I cannot hold to a works based salvation when the Bible so many times excludes works as a basis for salvation. Salvation is not of ourselves Paul says, in order that we should not boast! If we worked for our salvation, then we have reason to boast. But Paul says this: Boasting is excluded! Why? Because salvation is wholly of God and not of ourselves. Do you see why I have then come to my conclusion?
|
|
|
Post by Jon Broxton on Dec 22, 2009 16:20:00 GMT -8
I'll try to lay out my logic here. I believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant word of God. Therefore, I cannot hold to a works based salvation when the Bible so many times excludes works as a basis for salvation. Salvation is not of ourselves Paul says, in order that we should not boast! If we worked for our salvation, then we have reason to boast. But Paul says this: Boasting is excluded! Why? Because salvation is wholly of God and not of ourselves. Do you see why I have then come to my conclusion? No, I don't. I'm not working for salvation, or to be boastful; I'm working because by doing so it helps me, my family, and society in general to prosper and be a better place for everyone. Basically, you're saying that, if you don't believe in God, you're screwed no matter what you do.
|
|