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Post by Craig Richard Lysy on Dec 1, 2009 19:42:41 GMT -8
Well, I have watched my President who I voted for, give an inspired speech regarding the War in Afghanistan, and I feel greatly disappointed. So I offer the following for debate. Is his Johnson/Westmorelandesque escalation of the war the right plan for our country?
For transparency I admit, that I am a Liberal, that I am a Christian who deplores war, that I in 1972 at 18 years of age in a street protest burned my draft card in an act of public defiance to the immoral Viet Nam war, and lastly that I oppose the Afghanistan and Iraq wars.
My Premise; 1. The Afghan government of Karzai is irredeemably corrupt.and that his government is illegitimate and does not enjoy popular support. His own brother is the drug king pin of the country. 3. The majority of the American public do not support this war, and history affirms that no nation can wage and win war if the majority of the citizenry do not support the war effort. 5. We continue the flawed Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld strategy of not paying for war, and therefore cannot afford to spend over 1.5 trillion dollars fighting this war. 6. No nation has ever conquered and secured Afghanistan, from Alexander the Great, to Genghis Khan, to Leonid Brezhnev! 7. This is a civil war whose outcome must be determined alone by the citizens of Afghanistan.
I offer you the opportunity to assume the role of teacher and convince me that I am wrong.
Please weigh in.
p.s. As in my first thread, this is a genuine effort to foster dialogue with people of opposing political views. I believe we are better for the dialogue.
With all due sincerity,
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Post by Jon Broxton on Dec 1, 2009 20:57:38 GMT -8
I think the difference here is that Afghanistan is somewhere the United States NEEDS to be; there is a valid reason for being in Afghanistan, and that is to find Osama Bin Laden and bring him to justice for what he did (by proxy) on 9/11. It's a world of difference from Iraq, where the American presence was purely to topple a corrupt Government which, in reality, never truly did anything to the US other than be a "threat".
Is the world a better place with Saddam Hussein out of it? Absolutely. He was a monster and a tyrant; BUT, I still think that whole incursion was a smoke screen which also had a lot to do with oil, money, and establishing a foothold in the Middle East. But that's a different topic...
As for Arghanistan, YES I support the troops in their efforts here, because there is a clear reason for being there, and a specific target: Bin Laden. He is a criminal, and using force to bring him in is something I believe the US military SHOULD be doing. Whether, if/when he is caught, other things to do with the corrupt Karzai government or the Taliban come to bear... well, then we'll have to re-think things and analyze the situation in the new light.
But as for now: yes, bring the bastard in and make him pay.
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ddueck
Ghostwriter
Omnia dicta fortiori, si dicta Latina!
Posts: 245
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Post by ddueck on Dec 1, 2009 21:09:36 GMT -8
Prior apologies for a post which has been hastily-written by a very tired man. I haven't time to respond to everything here, Craig, but there is one little thing I noticed that I must address: I am a Christian who by fidelity to scripture opposes war unconditionally I am a fundamental Christian and very right-wing. I pretty much stay out of the political and religious threads here because I don't feel I have a need to explain or prove my viewpoints in those regards (people here have made their views of fundamental Christian beliefs pretty clearly known). I also don't want to offend others by telling them they are wrong; but I know you are an open-minded man, Craig, who is willing to discuss things on the level, so I will just say this about your above comment regarding Scripture's view of war: Having read the Holy Bible cover to cover several times (in several versions), I have to question exactly where you think the Scriptures oppose war unconditionally. On the contrary, look at God bringing the Israelites into Canaan after the Exodus, with Joshua leading the armies of Israel. City after city was destroyed and entire populations were slain so that God could give his chosen people a land purified from paganism. The prophets of the Book of Judges were no less violent: look at Samson, who killed hundreds upon hundreds of Philistine soldiers in one day using nothing but the jawbone of a donkey. Gideon and his army of 300 put an army of thousands to flight in a midnight raid. King David killed Goliath and cut off his head. Christ Himself said that we should "not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:34). Also, Matthew 24:6 says "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." Christ Himself knew that His teachings would bring unity to those who believed them, but ultimately division in the world between believers and unbelievers. NOW. I'm not advocating violence or conflict in any way. I will be the first to say that peace is an admirable pursuit and that we would be fools not to desire it. Nor am I telling anybody that they should believe these Biblical teachings to be true. (I believe they are infallibly true and Divinely inspired, but I'm not going to tell you that you have to believe them. You are entitled to believe whatever you like.) All I'm saying is that the Bible has clear and often graphic depictions of wars, national conflict, and interpersonal violence, and only a portion of it is depicted as evil and wrong; which would seem to suggest that Craig's statement of Biblical allegiance is to a Scripture different from the one I've read, or to one which doesn't exist. Or he simply isn't that familiar with Scripture. Anyways, as terrible as it sounds, I believe war is occasionally the right choice. Not the BEST choice, or the NICEST choice, or the IDEAL choice, but the right one. I also believe that the right choice can be made and the execution of it done poorly and ignorantly, with lasting and horrible consequences to millions of people. I believe the Iraqi and Afghan wars are examples of this. So much for my views for now. It's bedtime. I would love to revisit this thread soon when I have more time.
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ddueck
Ghostwriter
Omnia dicta fortiori, si dicta Latina!
Posts: 245
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Post by ddueck on Dec 1, 2009 21:10:33 GMT -8
PS: Had a quick thought about the draft, in regards to your protest as a teenager, Craig. Thought you might care to hear what little of my view I can manage to articulate in my present state of fatigue... A new doctrine was introduced by Christ: His teaching to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." This offers a compelling and intriguing Scriptural basis for patriotism and obedient respect to Government (as long as they do not supersede our responsibilities and rights under God), and thus obedience to the draft; coupled with the Apostle Paul's admonitions for everyone to "be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." (Romans 13:1). It is significant and noteworthy that these things were said at a time when Rome was ruling the civilized world, with a none-too-strict iron grip on Palestine and a severe crackdown on the growing Christian sect. For the record, this is why I decided I would respect President Obama even though I do not agree with him and did not vote for him: my responsibility as a patriot of America compels me to support our nation's chosen leader and not disrespect him. The president gets my allegiance until he shows a clear and consistent disregard for the American peoples. More later. I need to get to bed, I've been up for over 19 hours..
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Post by Jon Broxton on Dec 1, 2009 21:45:48 GMT -8
Samson, who killed hundreds upon hundreds of Philistine soldiers in one day using nothing but the jawbone of a donkey. I know it's wrong to pick out one sentance from an otherwise thoughtful and philosophical post, but I just wanted to say: Really? That's AWESOME! Whoever wrote the bible must have loved putting that little gem in there I've got visions of Samson striding through a Philistine camp, wielding this thing like Brad Pitt and his scythe in Interview with the Vampire!
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Jon Lord
Ghostwriter
Calvinism and Hobbes
Posts: 321
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Post by Jon Lord on Dec 1, 2009 22:34:45 GMT -8
Isn't it though? I remember as a kid drawing pictures of Samson beating the crap out of Philistines with the jawbone (yes, that's the kind of thing I did for fun... okay, it's the kind of thing I do for fun). Of course, the violence was more like Asterix & Obelix than Gladiator.
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ddueck
Ghostwriter
Omnia dicta fortiori, si dicta Latina!
Posts: 245
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Post by ddueck on Dec 2, 2009 6:14:38 GMT -8
Really? That's AWESOME! Whoever wrote the bible must have loved putting that little gem in there I've got visions of Samson striding through a Philistine camp, wielding this thing like Brad Pitt and his scythe in Interview with the Vampire! Haha, yeah! Definitely one of my favourite Bible stories. ;D It's only a brief little nugget in Judges 15, but it always set my imagination on fire. It shares a chapter with another story of how he burned down the Philistine crops by setting three hundred foxes on fire and setting them loose in the fields.
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Post by Jon Broxton on Dec 2, 2009 10:55:27 GMT -8
Clearly Samson was not a member of PETA...
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Post by Craig Richard Lysy on Dec 2, 2009 11:58:21 GMT -8
Dave! What a thoughtful and most fascinating post. Upon reflection, I must will concede to your argument on this point. I must admit that my view is in the final analysis is indeed parochial.
Because of significant scriptural contradictions and the resultant paradox created by these contradictions, I have chosen to commit to those teachings that I construe as thematic of a loving and compassionate God the Sermon on the Mount for example. When I stand naked during final judgment, I will see if my beliefs/interpretations warrant God's grace.
Thanks again Dave. I intend to edit the original post based upon your feedback.
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Post by Chris Tilton on Dec 2, 2009 14:30:49 GMT -8
Didn't you guys play Assassin's Creed II? There is no God, we were made by ALIENS!! AHHHHHHHHHH
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Post by Hook on Dec 2, 2009 15:08:39 GMT -8
Didn't you guys play Assassin's Creed II? There is no God, we were made by ALIENS!! AHHHHHHHHHH Dammit, that's still on my queue! Don't rob me of fun and confusion so arbitrarily!
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Post by Chris Tilton on Dec 2, 2009 16:44:21 GMT -8
Didn't you guys play Assassin's Creed II? There is no God, we were made by ALIENS!! AHHHHHHHHHH Dammit, that's still on my queue! Don't rob me of fun and confusion so arbitrarily! Sorry, didn't mean to, though it's pretty obvious even from the first game. Also, the game doesn't say anything about aliens really, I just added that for effect.
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Post by Craig Richard Lysy on Dec 2, 2009 17:40:37 GMT -8
To Chris and Alonso, you two make me laugh. Given the all to often harsh reality of my job in healthcare (today was a sad day), I appreciate those who can elicit a smile and a good laugh.
Thank you.
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ddueck
Ghostwriter
Omnia dicta fortiori, si dicta Latina!
Posts: 245
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Post by ddueck on Dec 2, 2009 20:00:37 GMT -8
Dave! What a thoughtful and most fascinating post. Upon reflection, I must will concede to your argument on this point. I must admit that my view is in the final analysis is indeed parochial. Well, it's all good, Craig. Just thought it was worth mentioning, as the Book that I regard as the foundation of my faith was being presented in a false light, albeit marginally, insignificantly, and unintentionally. I may not be the most outwardly evangelistic Christian by any means, but I do know what I believe, and I will support, defend and believe in my faith to my dying day and beyond. The Bible is too often misrepresented and maligned by people whose lives, words and actions don't match up to their stated beliefs, and I don't want to be one of those people. I stand by my faith and live by my convictions. One of my convictions, however, is definitely to "love my neighbor as myself," and to be a friend to all men. A man's choices and his actions, no matter how much I dislike or disagree with those things, will not prevent me from befriending a man and enjoying fellowship with him, provided such fellowship does not induce me to make choices or perform actions which would cause me to betray the beliefs, convictions and standards I purport to uphold. Because of significant scriptural contradictions and the resultant paradox created by these contradictions, Sometime, if you'd like to take the trouble, Craig, I'd be very interested to hear what some of these contradictions and paradoxes are. I'm aware of some that have been brought up during lengthy discussions with many of my friends, but I'm intrigued as to your particular views on the subject. Call me biased and even ignorant if you will, but I have never encountered anything amounting to what I see as a real contradiction in Scripture, and I lay myself open to hear any example you might provide. I have chosen to commit to those teachings that I construe as thematic of a loving and compassionate God the Sermon on the Mount for example. I recognize and greatly respect the fact that you are clearly stating your beliefs in these particular facets of Scripture: like I said above, too many people claim to espouse a general "faith and belief" in the Bible as a whole, and then blatantly contradict the Bible with the lifestyles they choose to lead. Yours may be something of a "pick and choose" attitude regarding what Scriptures you accept, practice, and unreservedly claim to believe; but I truly appreciate that you are so honest and forthright about it. As for myself, I believe in Christ who is "the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever," (Hebrews 13:8) a God whose nature has never changed and thus whose entire revealed Word has always been consistent with His nature, though it may have been delivered in different ways to different people in different situations throughout the years. Therefore I believe the entire Bible has worth and constitutes truth, whether it communicates it literally or metaphorically. I would like very much to discuss our beliefs in and practices of Christianity at some point, Craig, and sooner rather than later. (Perhaps in a separate and dedicated thread?) As it is, however, I continue to stray further and further from the original subject of this post. I apologize. Where were we? ;D
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Post by Jon Broxton on Dec 2, 2009 20:58:08 GMT -8
OK, I'm probably going to open a can of worms here, but it's something I've wanted to ask for a while, so here we go: To those of you who are Christian: WHY are you Christian? I suppose I should outline my own philosophy. I was brought up in a Christian (Episcopalian/Chursh of England) household, and went to Church and Sunday School as a kid, but the older I got the more the entire idea of an all-knowing all-powerful God seemed increasingly ludicrous to me. I am certainly amenable to accepting the fact that there was once a man named Jesus (or, more likely, Joshua) who lived around 2,000 years ago in what is now Israel, who had some very good things to say about how people should live their lives, and who was crucified by the Romans for being a trouble-maker and rabble-rouser. The existence of Jesus isn't an issue for me. What bothers me is the God part, and the Bible part, and the Organized Religion part. As far as God is concerned, it seems to me that humans have always used "higher powers" as a way of explaining the things that the science of the day could not; lightning, earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunami were - and still are - called "acts of God", although we know precisely why they happen. It seems to me that the existance of God, or Gods, developed throughout the passage of time to give primitive societies some kind of structure and order, a reason for existing, and to allow them to feel less alone and insignificant in the Universe. It's not difficuly to imagine ancient Egyptians or Aztecs, or even Neolithic civilizations looking up at the sky, and having no concept of galaxies or stars or planets, and needing to create some higher power in order to explain it all. It's human nature to want to feel as though they are part of some larger plan in the bigger scheme of things. For me, though, I just don't buy that. Science has explained many of the things previously attributed to the work of God. For things that we don't fully understand - like the creation of the Earth and so on - I am quite prepared to accept the "we don't know yet" explanation. Science is a constantly evolving thing, and I'm sure that, in time, breakthroughs will be made that will explain the currently unexplainable. Furthermore; there are hundreds of conflicting religions. Christian, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and the dozens of other smaller religions all believe they have it right. It's the height of arrogance for one religion to believe that they are the one truth and all others are wrong. To me, the fact that most of them developed independently of each other, but often have similar structures, means not that that there is one God, or Gods, but that the majority of the human race thinks alike on a basic level (which goes back to my original point about the basic need for structure and organization), and traditions have continued over millennia, resulting in the multitude of religions we have today. And then there's the Bible; it has a lot of good things to say about being nice to people, about loving and rescecting your friends neighbors, and about the basic moral compass one should aspire to have. But I do NOT believe this is the word of God. I believe it's a set of oral myths and symbolic folk tales and parables which were passed down through generations of illerate shepherds and goat herders for 2,000 years, until eventually being written down by an organization who wanted to use its 'power' to control the populous - i.e. the Catholic Church. It's so contradictory, so full or myth and allegory, that it amazes me that people can take it so literally. For starters it has been translated through multiple languages through the years, and as such has lost virtually all its nuance, which in itself makes taking it literally impossible. The fact that the Council of Nicea edited the thing to make it fit their own dogma, re-writing and omitting passages which they felt they didn't want in there, indicates to me that it incomplete, and pushing a specific POV. And as for organized religion; I believe that, throughout time, the existance of major organized religious groups have done more harm than good to the world as we know it. From the Crusades, to the Spanish Inquisition,the forced conversion of the Native American population, to the Salem-style witch hunts, the Holocaust, and modern day Islamic fundamentalism, more atrocities have been committed in the name of God or religion than anything else. Killing people who don't subscribe to your your version of a set of myths is one of the most aborrent things I can think of. Forcing an entire populous to think a certain way under threat of "going to hell" or whatever other version of a horrific afterlife is used, is an utterly horrific concept to me, because it plays on basic human emotions, and makes people susceptible to allowing all manner of awful things out of pure fear. For me, religion has no place in my life. It's just not important to me. I try to live according to the morals of society, being good to people, helping those I can, being generous. I do these things not because the bible, or God tells me it's the right thing to do, but because I believe it is the right thing to do. Because (in my opinion) humanity created God and, subsequently, wrote the bible, then all the good/moral things the Bible teaches are, to me, HUMAN morals, which make sense and should be followed in order to have a safe, secure, prosperous society. That's what inspires me to be a good person, not my fear of not spending eternity with a mythical man in the sky. So... like I said... to the religious folks here. WHY are you religious? What does it bring you that you could not have in your life without it? Looking forward to the replies Jon
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