To those of you who are Christian: WHY are you Christian?
The short answer? Because I believe it is right and true, and I want to do the right and true thing. I was raised as a Christian, but have had plenty of opportunities to turn away from that lifestyle. (For I while I did, too.) I'm a practicing and devout Christian because I believe it is the truth, not out of fear or anything else half-baked and irrational. Read on.
What bothers me is the God part, and the Bible part, and the Organized Religion part. As far as God is concerned, it seems to me that humans have always used "higher powers" as a way of explaining the things that the science of the day could not; lightning, earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunami were - and still are - called "acts of God," although we know precisely why they happen. It seems to me that the existance of God, or Gods, developed throughout the passage of time to give primitive societies some kind of structure and order, a reason for existing, and to allow them to feel less alone and insignificant in the Universe. It's not difficuly to imagine ancient Egyptians or Aztecs, or even Neolithic civilizations looking up at the sky, and having no concept of galaxies or stars or planets, and needing to create some higher power in order to explain it all. It's human nature to want to feel as though they are part of some larger plan in the bigger scheme of things. For me, though, I just don't buy that. Science has explained many of the things previously attributed to the work of God. For things that we don't fully understand - like the creation of the Earth and so on - I am quite prepared to accept the "we don't know yet" explanation. Science is a constantly evolving thing, and I'm sure that, in time, breakthroughs will be made that will explain the currently unexplainable.
It is interesting to me that, when I discuss the existence of God (and an all-powerful, all-knowing omnipresent God at that) with non-religious people, they confine God to the laws of His own Creation: in other words, they think, perhaps without realizing it, that if God does exist, as the Creator of our universe, He would operate under the very rules by which the universe is governed: the laws of physics, the laws time and space, the regular rules of nature. I believe, again, that God IS all-powerful and all-knowing and omnipresent, and is the Creator of the universe in which we live: which would of course mean that, if He created this vast canvas of time and space, AND He created the natural laws which givern and maintain this universe, He would Himself be above and outside those laws. It is a monumental fallacy to expect such an
infinite Being to limit Himself and His power to such a constricting and consistent and MEASURABLE set of laws. Science is great for observing and proving causes of natural phenomena and discovering new processes for how our Universe operates, and I have little doubt that soon there will be some amazing scientific strides made which will make our understanding and comprehension of our Universe all but complete. But trying to use scientific processes based in the natural to prove the existence and essence of the spiritual and supernatural, a realm traditionally viewed as being outside the bounds of our physical world, is kinda odd and head-scratching at the very least, no?
For the record, I have no real beef with science except where the theory of Evolution is concerned (obvious I guess). Not really because it's against what the Bible says, but because I have yet to see any substantial scientific evidence of its validity, even as it is heralded and championed as definitive, proven fact. The fossil record contains no conclusive proof, and the main scientific support for the theory (which requires billions of years of history to work) is radiometric dating, which, if you would take the time to research how it works, is one of the most laughably imprecise testing methods imaginable. It's a crapshoot at best. Unless they've somehow managed to get it to work flawlessly in very recent years. I've got more to say on this if you care to hear it.
Furthermore; there are hundreds of conflicting religions. Christian, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and the dozens of other smaller religions all believe they have it right. It's the height of arrogance for one religion to believe that they are the one truth and all others are wrong. To me, the fact that most of them developed independently of each other, but often have similar structures, means not that that there is one God, or Gods, but that the majority of the human race thinks alike on a basic level (which goes back to my original point about the basic need for structure and organization), and traditions have continued over millennia, resulting in the multitude of religions we have today.
Well, that's an interesting viewpoint and certainly an understandable one, but purely speculative in nature. It's just as believable, from the view I follow, to believe in the one-God idea, with those who are unwilling to conform to God's commandments and standards creating their own religion and making up their own gods, following a similar pattern to God's template but having enough difference to suit their own preferences and agendas. And then, as you say, the traditions continued over millennia...
And then there's the Bible; it has a lot of good things to say about being nice to people, about loving and rescecting your friends neighbors, and about the basic moral compass one should aspire to have. But I do NOT believe this is the word of God. I believe it's a set of oral myths and symbolic folk tales and parables which were passed down through generations of illiterate shepherds and goat herders for 2,000 years, until eventually being written down by an organization who wanted to use its 'power' to control the populous - i.e. the Catholic Church. It's so contradictory, so full or myth and allegory, that it amazes me that people can take it so literally. For starters it has been translated through multiple languages through the years, and as such has lost virtually all its nuance, which in itself makes taking it literally impossible.
Anyone who cares to research the history of the Bible will discover that the Old Testament is a carefully preserved set of books which were eventually collected and compiled into that we call the Bible today. The Pentateuch, the historical chronicles, the royal Psalms of King David and the Proverbs of King Solomon, the books of the prophets, indeed the
entire Old Testament has been available in original Hebrew language, preserved by the Jewish people, for thousands of years. The Dead Sea Scrolls contained word-for-word copies of OT passages and the Jewish religious system has kept all of their religious documents fastidiously intact. The New Testament is simply the records and letter written by Christ's disciples and apostles: the Gospels are histories of the life of Christ, the bookf Acts details what happened immediately after Christ ascended and his teachings began to spread, and the epistles are the letters of Paul and others, exhorting believers to continue in the ways of Christ. The Book of Revelation concludes the Bible with a detailed record of a dream had by John. All that to say: all of this - ALL of the Bible - is still available to be read in their original written languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and some Latin). i.e., you can certainly get all the "nuance" you need if you care to study and research the thing a bit.
The fact that the Council of Nicea edited the thing to make it fit their own dogma, re-writing and omitting passages which they felt they didn't want in there, indicates to me that it incomplete, and pushing a specific POV.
So they trimmed the fat off. Are you familiar with what got left out? Does it matter that it got left out? I'm genuinely curious, albeit pretty ignorant on this issue - I admit it. But it's important to remember that the Gnostics, Nicolaitans and other highly subversive "christian" sects had dangerously undermined the original nature of Christ's Gospel, and the council of Nicaea was held to reestablish the pure, unadorned and unadulterated teachings of Christ to prevent further corruption. It was held to reaffirm and define the beliefs of basic Christianity in order to promote unity in the Church. Unfortunately, the church later adopted other, far more extreme measures to promote "unity," resulting in what you rightly abhorrent atrocities of the worst order.
And as for organized religion; I believe that, throughout time, the existence of major organized religious groups have done more harm than good to the world as we know it. From the Crusades, to the Spanish Inquisition,the forced conversion of the Native American population, to the Salem-style witch hunts, the Holocaust, and modern day Islamic fundamentalism, more atrocities have been committed in the name of God or religion than anything else. Killing people who don't subscribe to your your version of a set of myths is one of the most abhorrent things I can think of.
I agree entirely. Except for your comment about the Holocaust. Hitler's regime was defiantly atheistic and anti-religion. If you would care to explain why you included this event in your list, I'd be obliged.
The Church bullied its way into becoming an absolute authority over most European states and began to abuse that authority in atrocious ways, for years upon years upon years: I confess that is one of the most terrible things in the history of the world. The way the church locked people into a forced ignorance of the true teachings of Christ by preventing the translation of the Bible into the common tongue is downright repulsive, as is the way they exploited that ignorance through paid indulgences, the inspiration of violently zealous crusades and inquisitions, and the hypocritical luxury of the church hierarchy. The crusades in particular were a horribly misguided exercise in futility and amazing bloodshed, and clearly goes against the original teachings of Christ. I definitely agree that religion has made a hideous fool of itself through the years and done horrible things in the name of God. I offer, in the spirit of the Season, what Dickens wisely said of the matter:
"Spirit," said Scrooge, after a moment's thought, "I wonder you, of all the beings in the many worlds about us, should desire to cramp these people's opportunities of innocent enjoyment."
"I!" cried the Spirit.
"You would deprive them of their means of dining every seventh day, often the only day on which they can be said to dine at all," said Scrooge. "Wouldn't you?"
"I!" cried the Spirit.
"You seek to close these [bakeries and shops] on the Seventh Day," said Scrooge. "And it comes to the same thing."
"I seek!" exclaimed the Spirit.
"Forgive me if I am wrong. It has been done in your name, or at least in that of your family," said Scrooge.
"There are some upon this earth of yours," returned the Spirit, "who lay claim to know us, and who do their deeds of passion, pride, ill-will, hatred, envy, bigotry, and selfishness in our name, who are as strange to us and all our kith and kin, as if they had never lived. Remember that, and charge their doings on themselves, not us."
Forcing an entire populous to think a certain way under threat of "going to hell" or whatever other version of a horrific afterlife is used, is an utterly horrific concept to me, because it plays on basic human emotions, and makes people susceptible to allowing all manner of awful things out of pure fear.
As for the "threat" of Hell, well, view it as a threat if you will, and do what you will with the entire notion. The threat has certainly been tossed around quite a bit, in obnoxious fashion, in order to get people to listen to the Gospel. The way the concept of Hell has been manipulated by humans to push certain agendas is definitely disgusting to me as well. All I can say, though, is that I believe God is GOOD. And in order to be
good, God would also have to be
just. And a just God would send the unrepentant to Hell. Sorry if that's offensive to you, but again, I'm not asking
you to believe any of it. Just believe that
I believe it, and that I
really believe it. I'm following after what I have been convinced in my heart of hearts is the truth. I'm not looking to offend anyone with this belief and I'm certainly not offended by anyone who
doesn't believe the same as me.
For me, religion has no place in my life. It's just not important to me. I try to live according to the morals of society, being good to people, helping those I can, being generous. I do these things not because the bible, or God tells me it's the right thing to do, but because I believe it is the right thing to do. Because (in my opinion) humanity created God and, subsequently, wrote the bible, then all the good/moral things the Bible teaches are, to me, HUMAN morals, which make sense and should be followed in order to have a safe, secure, prosperous society. That's what inspires me to be a good person, not my fear of not spending eternity with a mythical man in the sky.
Morals definitely maintain good society - you're right. But who would make such morals up in the first place unless they had the power and authority to enforce those rules of morality? Honestly, who
doesn't want to be able to steal and get stuff for free? Who doesn't want to beat the living crap out of (i.e. kill) someone who wrongs you? But wait - who defines what is right and wrong from situation to situation? And when did that start? Why have the standards gradually changed (or become slack or ignored)? Why are they often different from nation to nation? Let's be honest, these morals you speak of, whether they stem from God or from man, are not followed by everyone. Far from it. And while it's great that people like you, Jon, are willing to stick to them for their own sake and your fellow man's sake, no one is being held accountable for a great deal of these morals which get ignored and stepped on nowadays, unless God is holding them accountable - only a being like God is capable of that. Civil law enforcement can apprehend and punish criminals and civil offenders, but they can't put an adulterer in jail for cheating on his wife. Yet that is considered wrong. Wrong by whose standards? And who deals with it? If there are no consequences for moral issues like this, why should we have these morals?
So... like I said... to the religious folks here. WHY are you religious? What does it bring you that you could not have in your life without it?
I'll tell you.
When I do something wrong, I know I've wronged someone. My conscience pains me. I can reconcile with humans I've offended, but I still know at the end of the day I'm responsible to a higher power for what I've done with my time on this earth. Sure, I can't offer any proof of that, but I'm not here to prove anything. I just want people to know I'm serious about my beliefs.
But for fun, let's imagine that NONE of what I believe as a fundamental Christian is true, but I choose to practice the religion anyways. Here's what my life looks like:
I'm principled and thus responsible and healthy.
I live a life trying to be void of offense toward God and man, striving to be a blessing to those around me and a good representative of the God I claim to serve. If I'm not a hypocrite about what I profess to believe, this means in a practical sense that I get along with everybody, and have true peace & happiness in my mind, heart, and conscience.
I live a good life spent with people I love and who love me. Christianity sure is divisive, but at least the people who stick with you are with you for real.
In the end, when Death comes knocking, either I'm dead and that's it or there's an afterlife. If the former, I had a better and more wholesome life than lots of people. If the latter, well, "I've got a friend in Jesus."
What do I sacrifice for all this? Nothing that a sane, right-minded person adhering to the "HUMAN morals of society" wouldn't sacrifice, except maybe some respect from people who get antagonistic about religion of any kind. I may get a lot of flack and ridicule for my beliefs (and indeed already have - it's almost a daily thing at my job), but it's nothing that Christians haven't gotten for the last two thousand years, and anyways the purpose of my life (if I follow these beliefs) is not to obtain the approval of all mankind: it is to have the favour of - and fellowship with - God Himself.
I am a Christian because I believe it is right, because I'm concinced in my Spirit of its truth, and because it gives me deep, lasting peace. I ask nothing of anyone except that they realize I'm not faking, and that they tell me if they see hypocrisy in me, so I can correct it. Otherwise, do as you please with your own life and beliefs. It won't offend me, and I certainly won't alienate you.
If anyone is baffled by all this, rendered contemptuous, and/or believe me to be irrevocably ignorant, you have every right.
I remain open to discussion, ridicule and questioning.