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Post by Joseph Bat on Nov 19, 2008 18:17:24 GMT -8
I find it really ammusing that the US government is rather quick to bailout Wall Street and banks, but as soon as it comes to making the choice to bailout the Auto Companies that support so many middle class workers there is large reluctance.
Obviously the big three have made some utter shitty choices and if you are going to give them money you better regulate it more than what they have done with the banks, but the shit is really hitting the fan. And the shit will REALLY hit the fan if America (well Canada too) let these guy's disappear. It isn't just about the big three either - its all the other companies that are connected with them. Do you think that local car dealer is going to get ANY business if the majority of their cars are from the big 3 and they go bankrupt? It will be a huge domino effect. This would totally undue the original bailout. The economy is already on life support.
Joe
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cheno
Conductor
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Post by cheno on Nov 19, 2008 18:49:15 GMT -8
Taking money away from the Wall Street bailout and giving it to the auto companies seems pretty logical at this point.
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Post by Jockolantern on Nov 20, 2008 1:43:37 GMT -8
Revoking the bailouts in full seems completely logical at this point.
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MikeP
Orchestrator
Posts: 537
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Post by MikeP on Nov 20, 2008 5:51:08 GMT -8
If Detroit wants a bailout because they are out of money, the CEOs probably shouldn't have used the corporate jet (GM's estimated cost was $20,000 alone) to fly to Washington to plead their case.
Joe, keep in mind that the American people were by and large against the bailout plan for Wall Street. The govt actually went AGAINST the will of the people to pass that thing. So the only real change is the government's stance. Except it really hasn't changed all that much, as the Democrats are pretty much pushing for this, while Republicans are simply unified against it.
I can't help but to think that the Representatives in the House that barely voted for the original bailout are seeing how its not working as expected (Paulson changing the terms at will and banks using the money to buyout failing banks instead of creating credit) and have regained their senses.
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Post by Brendan Anderson on Nov 20, 2008 8:19:48 GMT -8
I ran out of milk this morning because I drank it all yesterday. Now I want cereal, but I have no milk! I need a milk bail out! If I don't get a milk bail out, I won't be able to eat cereal and that means I won't be buying more cereal so the cereal company will go out of business!! It's a domino effect and the world will end!!*
There are lots of other auto companies in the world besides the 'big three'. The U.S. manufactures lots and lots of Toyotas and Hondas right here in the country. People buy cars, just not lame/impractical cars they don't want like the ones GM has been pouring money into. I really can't understand democrats - don't they always complain that too many people drive cars anyway? So why bail out car companies? Oh, right...because then government will have more power over industry. And we all know that will be good for EVERYBODY, right? Right? (*cough* soviet union *cough*)
-Brendan
*This is a true story. Seriously, does anyone have any milk?
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Post by Hook on Nov 20, 2008 8:58:16 GMT -8
When you guys say "democrats", do you mean "President Bush" and "the Federal Reserve"?
On a related topic, not to get too paranoid, but I'm sick of people saying this is the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression. Really? It is? I just come from reading threads "How has the economy affected you?" and pretty much this list sums them up:
-I don't eat out too much. -My DVD collection has taken a hit. -My 401k has dropped a little, but it'll be ok by the time I need it. -My work hours have been cut somewhat.
Oh, dear, what will the world ever do to recover from this major financial catastrophe? Anyways, it's fun seeing the guys who screw up get more money because, obviously, they know how to get themselves out of trouble.
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MikeP
Orchestrator
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Post by MikeP on Nov 20, 2008 10:16:27 GMT -8
Brendan: why don't you follow GM's example? Say that you've loaned some friends money, and that you now count as a financial institution and should qualify for the milk bailout?
Hook, by Democrats I am referring to Democrats in the House of Representatives, especially Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other pro-Union Democrats. However, I'm not under the delusion that the only reason Republicans are returning to fiscal responsibility and smaller government is because, well, they are no longer in control of it. However, direct bailouts aren't really Republican policy anyway, as they tend to favor other varieties of stupidity.
As to your other question: How has the economy affected me? It hasn't, much, thankfully. YET. My 401k has lost about 25% of its value last I checked, but I'm not close to needing it. My mother, who works as a teacher for a community college (and is employed by the state), has had her end of year pay raise suspended indefinitely. I live near Norfolk, which was subject to one of the Ford plant closings last year, and I knew someone in the union and someone that worked as an IT contractor for the plant - both lost their jobs. The IT guy found a new job, the union guy moved. My boss' daughter lost her Insurance saleman job last week, after 10 years at the company. My boss also won't be able to let his wife retire next year, as he's lost over $100,000 from his 401k.
However, I don't think an internet thread is the best place to get a feel for how the economy is affecting people. Your not reaching the right demographic. Also, despite the panicked sense of urgency that was used to pass the bailout, large scale affects will take a bit longer to take hold.
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Post by Jens Dietrich on Nov 20, 2008 10:32:02 GMT -8
'nuff said.
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cheno
Conductor
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Post by cheno on Nov 20, 2008 10:50:51 GMT -8
Ok, I'm not an economy expert so I'm just gonna throw this out there and see why I'm wrong, since I don't see anybody talking about this anywhere.
Why couldn't the government take this money and give it to another big three (Toyota, Honda, Volkswagen) to buy out America's big three, including the plants, so most of the millions of people can keep their jobs and we know we'll have reliable companies in charge?
Because the big three just can't go out of business. That would have an awful ripple effect if that many people were suddenly out of a job. Think of how many industries would be affected by this.
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Post by Brendan Anderson on Nov 20, 2008 11:11:09 GMT -8
Because the big three just can't go out of business. That would have an awful ripple effect if that many people were suddenly out of a job. Think of how many industries would be affected by this. Actually, yes they can go out of business. Businesses fail every day - just because the scale is much bigger doesn't change the principal behind the market. Look at Circuit City - they just closed hundreds of stores resulting in thousands of geeky teens and 20-somethings being out of a job because the company couldn't sell their products in a way that made the public want to buy from them. Why doesn't anyone want a bail-out for Circuit City? Don't people care about geeky retail workers like they do car manufacturing assembly line workers? -Brendan
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cheno
Conductor
Posts: 1,012
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Post by cheno on Nov 20, 2008 11:45:22 GMT -8
Because the big three just can't go out of business. That would have an awful ripple effect if that many people were suddenly out of a job. Think of how many industries would be affected by this. Actually, yes they can go out of business. Businesses fail every day - just because the scale is much bigger doesn't change the principal behind the market. Look at Circuit City - they just closed hundreds of stores resulting in thousands of geeky teens and 20-somethings being out of a job because the company couldn't sell their products in a way that made the public want to buy from them. Why doesn't anyone want a bail-out for Circuit City? Don't people care about geeky retail workers like they do car manufacturing assembly line workers? -Brendan Brendan, what does it do to the economy if the three million auto workers, plus the countless amount of supply manufacturers, and everybody else that is either directly or indirectly affected by this industry. None of those people are going to be putting money into the economy, or paying taxes, or doing anything beneficial to the economy.
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Post by Joseph Bat on Nov 20, 2008 11:45:33 GMT -8
Because the big three just can't go out of business. That would have an awful ripple effect if that many people were suddenly out of a job. Think of how many industries would be affected by this. Actually, yes they can go out of business. Businesses fail every day - just because the scale is much bigger doesn't change the principal behind the market. Look at Circuit City - they just closed hundreds of stores resulting in thousands of geeky teens and 20-somethings being out of a job because the company couldn't sell their products in a way that made the public want to buy from them. Why doesn't anyone want a bail-out for Circuit City? Don't people care about geeky retail workers like they do car manufacturing assembly line workers? -Brendan This is just absurd. Are you playing devil's advocate to be fun or do you believe this crap you are spewing? It isn't just about the Big Three. Do you know how many companies are connected with them that will go out of business as well. My father's company in Canada builds the machines on the assembly lines that actually help to make the cars. Sure he does work for Honda and Toyota too, but if there's no Big Three, well then my father's business will probably find it extremely tough to make money. There are many more of those types of businesses that will be affected - that's not what you guy's are understanding. Circuit City is going out of business because of compeition simple as that. And yeah, I'd think I wouldn't mind seeing Circuit City going when they aren't even close to supporting the amount of jobs the Big Three do (directly and indirectly). Joe
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Post by Jens Dietrich on Nov 20, 2008 11:54:13 GMT -8
I don't think there's any saving the big three. This has been a long time coming, and any bailout would merely delay the inevitable at this point.
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MikeP
Orchestrator
Posts: 537
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Post by MikeP on Nov 20, 2008 12:31:10 GMT -8
Cheno, I'm hearing around 2.5-3 million jobs total, including auto workers, salesmen, suppliers, and people receiving money from advertising, etc. Not 3 million for JUST the auto workers, before suppliers and sales.
In order for me to support a bailout bill, I have to be convinced that Detroit won't fail anyway. Right now, they are facing the consequences of horrible business practices over the 80s and 90s. These go down the chain, from execs getting corporate jet use for their families, to many Union workers doing subpar jobs knowing their jobs are secure, to salesman that rip off and disillusion the very customers they rely on. The blame does not rely simply on the execs.
Until I see the executives and management making painful sacrifices, I won't believe they've learned their lesson and will have the proper mindset to save the companies.
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Post by Brendan Anderson on Nov 20, 2008 12:59:46 GMT -8
This is just absurd. Are you playing devil's advocate to be fun or do you believe this crap you are spewing? What's absurd, Joe, is your inability to accept the reality that the 'big three' auto-makers are not running effective businesses! No amount of bailing out is going to change that. Does that mean they could close completely? Yes. Does that mean lots and lots of people will have to find new jobs? Yes. Does that all really really suck? Yes! But it's going to happen because that's what happens when you run a bad business. If they all go out of business, that just means more people will buy Toyotas and Hondas meaning those manufacturing jobs will increase as will the demand for the manufacturing production companies who supply them like your Father's. What proof is there that a bail-out will solve all the car companies' problems? And when government comes in to control things, they usually get wacky. For instance, what if to "help" the economy, the government, as a part of the bail out package, dictated that all manufacturing for the autos had to come from the U.S. only? Your dad's company would go under. You can speculate about what government action might solve the problem all you want, but all that does it keep rolling the dice because it simply delays market forces. The market WILL catch up. The sooner you let it run its course, the sooner you can revamp/rebuild your business to be successful. And that's different from the car-makers how exactly? -Brendan
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