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Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Nov 21, 2008 21:35:58 GMT -8
I find it really amusing that the US government is rather quick to bailout Wall Street and banks, but as soon as it comes to making the choice to bailout the Auto Companies that support so many middle class workers there is large reluctance. Hey, Joe, don't forget that the Wall Street "rescue" bill didn't have enough votes the first time around. Anyway, I think this is a completely different case. If major US banking companies all filed for bankruptcy, the ramifications could have been much more far-reaching and more disastrous? With car manufactures it just seems different. Why can't the "Big Three" just file for Bankruptcy if they run out of cash? Btw, in October, Bush gave the Big Three a 25B loan... www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081001/AUTO01/810010350
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Post by Hook on Nov 21, 2008 22:20:13 GMT -8
I heard this guy on CNN say that the auto companies should be taken over by those run better auto businesses, file for bankruptcy, and start from the ground up. Is it so terrible for Toyota to take over GM and make use of its resources to revamp the U.S. auto industry?
I know I'm terrible at economic issues and the level of secrecy with this bailout isn't helping (have you read how congressmen have been bullied and scared into voting for it?) but let's say a company like Microsoft screws big time (they won't, they're one of those strange, transparent businesses that don't give absurd wages to their CEOs). That's thousands of jobs that are at stake, both in the U.S. and the rest of world. Not to mention almost all business depend on their software. Ok, so if you're giving money to prevent something awful from happening, why not give that money to other successful software makers that could make use of the giant's resources? You know, transform the business. Apple, the Mozilla Foundation, Sun, Google, any one of them.
Again, this is all too confusing to me.
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rkeaveney
Orchestrator
Tell all your friends
Posts: 748
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Post by rkeaveney on Nov 23, 2008 10:51:23 GMT -8
What's in it for Toyota to inherit hundreds of thousands of union worker wages that are sometimes two to three times higher than what Toyota currently pays out to auto workers in the U.S. and Canada in it's own plants?
If you really want to know how these US automakers were brought to it's knees, it has as much to do with high union wages and smothering pension and health benefits.
A worker in a Honda plant in Ontario, Canada, building Honda Civics, the number one selling car in Canada, makes about half the hourly wage of a worker in a GM plant in the same province making Chevy Eldorados, which are mouldering on dealer lots.
The automakers are asking for a bailout to help save these autoworkers jobs. Yet these same employees have made zero concessions in wages and benefits despite the looming demise of their employers.
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Post by Jens Dietrich on Nov 23, 2008 10:56:05 GMT -8
Spot on, Ryan. GM's overhead is simply too large to make a profit in the current economic climate. That's what years of short-sighted deals with the UAW will do to you. If they can file for bankruptcy and free themselves of that legacy burden, they may just have a chance to reemerge as a strong company. But they'd have to receive some DIP loans for that, which is likely to be a problem, what with the credit market the way it is right now.
Bear in mind that even in that best case scenario, GM still has to file for bankruptcy.
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cheno
Conductor
Posts: 1,012
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Post by cheno on Nov 23, 2008 11:29:55 GMT -8
Right, so it's the workers' faults. How horrible of them...
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Post by muckle dabuckle on Nov 23, 2008 12:37:06 GMT -8
Yeah, it is the worker's fault. They don't want to take a pay cut even when their employer is about to go bankrupt. They make an inferior product that people aren't buying but they want to get paid as if they are a booming business. Of course these same people want me to take a pay cut to bail them out. Hilarious.
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cheno
Conductor
Posts: 1,012
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Post by cheno on Nov 23, 2008 12:58:06 GMT -8
Yeah, it is the worker's fault. They don't want to take a pay cut even when their employer is about to go bankrupt. They make an inferior product that people aren't buying but they want to get paid as if they are a booming business. Of course these same people want me to take a pay cut to bail them out. Hilarious. So it's the auto workers that designed those cars? You're really blaming them for that? My goodness...
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Post by muckle dabuckle on Nov 23, 2008 13:04:55 GMT -8
So it's the auto workers that designed those cars? You're really blaming them for that? My goodness... Yes, it is their fault. They made cars people don't want. Higher wages for the workers means higher prices for the cars, which is another reason people aren't buying them.
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cheno
Conductor
Posts: 1,012
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Post by cheno on Nov 23, 2008 13:06:59 GMT -8
So it's the auto workers that designed those cars? You're really blaming them for that? My goodness... Yes, it is their fault. They made cars people don't want. Higher wages for the workers means higher prices for the cars, which is another reason people aren't buying them. Yeah, because it was totally their decision to make cars like that. I hate to pull a Jens, but listen to yourself...
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Post by muckle dabuckle on Nov 23, 2008 13:10:07 GMT -8
Yeah, because it was totally their decision to make cars like that. I hate to pull a Jens, but listen to yourself... Yes, because these cars just appeared out of thin air. No one designed them.
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cheno
Conductor
Posts: 1,012
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Post by cheno on Nov 23, 2008 13:11:16 GMT -8
Yeah, because it was totally their decision to make cars like that. I hate to pull a Jens, but listen to yourself... Yes, because these cars just appeared out of thin air. No one designed them. You really think this debate is about the executives? No, we're talking about the assembly line workers. Here's a good study on this subject: www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=1026e955-541c-4aa6-bcf2-56dfc3323682p
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Post by muckle dabuckle on Nov 23, 2008 13:27:02 GMT -8
No, we're talking about the assembly line workers. That's who I was talking about too. The executives with the corporate jets just symbolize the entire operation: everyone lives in excess even when they literally can't. The American people have spoken by not buying their cars and now the government is telling us, "NO, you're paying for these cars." It's like I live in an alternate reality. Although, I've read these american companies were making a killing on stuff like SUVs until excessive government regulation stopped that. If these foreign car companies were smart they'd get the hell out of this country where success is punished.
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Post by Hook on Nov 23, 2008 15:35:28 GMT -8
I think we all know who the real culprit is... Whereas his Japanese counterpart plays the violin and makes a killing in profits:
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Post by muckle dabuckle on Nov 23, 2008 15:45:58 GMT -8
Or better yet the Saudi's can buy the car companies: kstp.com/article/stories/S674785.shtml?cat=206The Saudi royal family was in Rochester, Minnesota for 1 week to get checkups at the Mayo clinic and they spend as much as $2.5 million. Curing all economic worries in Rochester for the rest of the year. ;D
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Post by Brendan Anderson on Nov 23, 2008 16:44:36 GMT -8
The Saudi royal family was in Rochester, Minnesota for 1 week to get checkups at the Mayo clinic What?! The Saudi's, with their unlimited wealth and ability to travel anywhere on the globe, decided to come to the U.S. for their health care instead of a country with a fancy socialized medical system? Oh, wait, sorry....wrong thread.... -Brendan p.s. love the photos Hook. I can only imagine in horror the retribution those diabolical orange machine arms would seek if they are laid off. Oh sure, some of them could take refuge in other employment: taking french fries out of the fryer at McDonald's, retrieving ice cream treats out of vending machines, etc. But the majority of them would no doubt organize into a mass execution force and march as death squads looking to kill us all.
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