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Post by muckle dabuckle on Mar 16, 2005 13:17:06 GMT -8
I'm Lutheran (ELCA). My dad is a pastor as well as my grandpa and great grandpa (all Lutheran). Now my alias won't do anygood because a lot of you will know who I am now (if the sentence structure of previous messages didn't give that away already ). I grew up in the Lutheran church and its relatively formal practices. Upon heading to college and spending time in my years after college, I drifted away from the more traditional Lutheran way of doing things You mean (A)ugsburg didn't make you "grow" more in your spirituality? You should read Dr. D. James Kennedy's books (Why I Believe, etc, etc.). Maybe my bro' has already pushed these on you before? ;D I like how he pretends he has all of these Bible verses memorized, but it is a tv show so he is just reading them off of a cue card (at least there is no way to prove he has them memorized unless you see him in person). The question is do you enjoy watching his wife Roxella? Christian K.: You do realize strongly believing religion is what causes problems is a religion itself? Plus, you should've tried being Lutheran. You did growup in Martin Luther's backyard (well, at least close enough). ;D
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Post by Brendan Anderson on Mar 16, 2005 14:12:43 GMT -8
You mean (A)ugsburg didn't make you "grow" more in your spirituality? I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that the classes there made me grow in my faith, but some of the people I met there had an influence on me for sure. It's also where I was introduced to my favorite book about Christianity: Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. A fantastic book. You bet! She's the comic relief part of the show...with her big, plastic smile and her "ooooooo, thank you Jack! Doesn't heaven just sound wonderful!?" -Brendan
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Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Mar 16, 2005 15:17:10 GMT -8
Well it's good to hear you emphatize the person and the personal. I tend to take more of a perso-centric view myself. I also like the fact that you've drifted away from Lutheran formalities and let your own personal life guide your spirituality. Who knows, maybe one day you will find yourself with the Captain, and maybe one day I'll find myself, in the same boat, with Mr. E. ;D
There is where some of my personal confusion lies. Does the God of the NT (the one Jesus calls the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob) value beliefs or actions? The Jesus of Matthew, Mark, and Luke seem to indicate that actions (righteousness) will get you to the kingdom (Matt 5:20), but the Jesus of John seems to indicate that only beliefs, some ceremonial, like Baptism and Communion, will get you into the kingdom of heaven. (Though John does steal a line or two from Matthew in John 5:19)... So, in the end will my beliefs or actions condemn me to the hellfires?
If this is the case, who can't get into heaven. Anyone from Stalin to Saddam, from Hitler to Bush ;D, from the BTK killer to that guy in Wisconsin, can get into heaven, if only they believe. The Jesus of Matt, Mark, and Luke made it seem like getting into heaven was an impossible chore... One so diffucult that even his disciples questioned if it was possible for non-rich people to enter into this kingdom of heaven....
And didn't someone ask Jesus: "What shall I do to inherit eternal life? He replied:
"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! "
(Luke Chpt 18, Matthew Chpt 10,...)
You sure that wasn't Paul. I'd hate for your Lord to tell you on your judgement day, the same thing which he said in Luke 13:23-28... And if you gonna quote John for me, just note that John is the most cryptic and problematic gospel of them all.... Most bibles don't even include the quotations after John 3:15, and there are some problems with the Father-Son analogies in John 5:19-23... Although John is my favorite Gospel (along with Matthew), there are many percievable fallabilties in the Gospel of John, beggining with the opening verses. I tend to think that in the beggining there was Music... ;D
So the GREATEST Commandment has nothing to do with Belief, only actions. Amazing! (bagpipes start to play)
So in the new heaven, God will reign over God, the Son will reign over the Father? Doesn't a kingom divided against itself fall down...
See Above. I'll have to do some more reading later on....
We'll have to read the parables again. I do recall Jesus doing a lot of Woeing...Also, this is something that is hard to debate because no one knows who's going to heaven, if there is a heaven. The beauty of OT and NT God, are found in the stories of redemption and mercy. A murderer became a great prophet, an adulterer was allowed to live, and so on. But this merciful god is also a very vengeful one... By your reasoning every Christian is going to heaven. While reading parts of the bible, I just didn't come away with that message, but it is a (gnostic?) possibility that I like hearing...
According to Catholics, humans are destined to sin, and because sin is inevitable, they have to repent (Confession). But if they continue to do the same sin over and over gain, they are in essence turning thier backs on God and declaring that they want to be in hell (a state without God's Love). Your right to assume that nobody gets to heaven since everyone sins, but this is where God's Grace and Mercy comes into play ("With God everyhing is possible").
Thanks for leading me back to this Chapter 7. I sensed that he was talking about more than false prophets... He was talking about Personal Responsibility. Take another look...
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.
"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,´ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?´ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.´"
Sounds like heaven isn't so inclusive. Are you starting to worry know? (if so see Matt again)
-Carlton (the questions will never end)
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Emily
Ghostwriter
Posts: 239
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Post by Emily on Mar 16, 2005 17:34:01 GMT -8
Really? So am I. In fact, my dad is a Methodist minister in Johannesburg. Is that surprising? Actually, neither of my parents are religious, so I wasn't raised as a Methodist or any other denomination. Until I was 12, I had only been to a few Baptist summer Bible camps, and only because my babysitter hauled us off to them. Long story short, new girl moves to town, we become best friends, her mother is the new Methodist minister, I start going to church by myself, and I'm baptized at 13 and confirmed at 14. And I must say that I am in awe of the discussion on this thread. Sometimes (actually, most times), I really feel like you guys are light years beyond me and my shallow grasp of religion, faith, politics, ethics, and life in general. Em
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Post by muckle dabuckle on Mar 16, 2005 17:55:25 GMT -8
I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that the classes there made me grow in my faith, but some of the people I met there had an influence on me for sure. It's also where I was introduced to my favorite book about Christianity: Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. A fantastic book. Um....Brendan, I was just kidding. If I say something positive about (A)ugsburg it is a joke. But, ya some of the religion classes were okay I thought(especially the professor from down south, I forget his name. I think he was after your time--didn't detect any hint of bias in his teaching either way). When doing a research paper on Martin Luther I found out he didn't change his bed for years and it smelled of sweat, but that changed after he married. He also didn't get fat until he was married. As for the people at (A)ugsburg I was thinking about reading that book or at least getting some people's thoughts on it, but right now I'll stick to the Chronicles of Narnia. Yes. She's funny. ;D -nate
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Post by muckle dabuckle on Mar 16, 2005 18:02:48 GMT -8
Is that surprising? Actually, neither of my parents are religious, so I wasn't raised as a Methodist or any other denomination. Until I was 12, I had only been to a few Baptist summer Bible camps, and only because my babysitter hauled us off to them. Long story short, new girl moves to town, we become best friends, her mother is the new Methodist minister, I start going to church by myself, and I'm baptized at 13 and confirmed at 14. That's awesome. I would say most of us are still ditzy little 20-somethings that don't know much (no one will back me up on this though, I'm sure ). We are still trying to figure out stuff as well. Plus, did you read the political discussions on filmtracks? I would say those were pretty shallow. ;D -nate
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Post by Brendan Anderson on Mar 16, 2005 18:46:51 GMT -8
Well it's good to hear you emphatize the person and the personal. A personal faith is really the only way true faith can be experienced, no? Can one simply believe in faith? I don't think so....I think either you can have faith (personal faith), or not. Well, I'd more say that I've let God guide me spiritually...like I said, it's been through relying on Him in the hard times and seeing what He can do in my life that I've experienced the most faith-building. I think you're making it far too difficult. Through his lessons and parables, I think Christ was trying to educate a society that had it all backwards and that context needs to be kept in mind. If a small child is about to walk off the edge of a swimming pool deck and fall into the water, a parent will shout, "STOOOOOPPPP!!!!!" in order for them to understand....but if an adult were about to do the same thing, the same parent might say, "Um, that's probably not such a good idea." The basic message is the same, but the people who the message is intended for need different kinds of delivery. I think the same is true with Jesus and the people he taught. The message is: worldly wealth and power are meaningless in the kingdom of heaven and to focus on them takes your attention away from God....illustrating this to his clueless deciples (and Bible readers today) is more hard-hitting if it is delivered in a harsher form, i.e. "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!" Exactly. They all can if they accept Christ as their personal savior. It's hard to take at times, yes, but would you rather try to subscribe to the old Catholic method of selling indulgences instead? I'd rather stick with following the teachings of Jesus instead.... But you see, it's the personal relationship with God that Jesus is aiming for here...he's saying that people who simply act "religious" and go through the motions without having true faith or knowing Christ have got it wrong...it's those that strive to know Christ (however flawed they may be as a person) who He promises an eternal life. Does that make it any less valid? What's fallable about the first verses of John? Of course it does :b The disciples had asked Jesus what they should DO, not what they should BELIEVE....Jesus was simply answering the question. Where did I say that? And are you really unfamiliar with the idea of the Holy Trinity (you know, three in ONE? :b ) or are you just playing with me? Vengeful towards those who seek to destroy his followers or ruin his reputation? Yes, at times...why wouldn't He be? If by Christians you mean those who accept Christ as their savior and all that goes with it, yes. Indeed...the very last thing any of us should want on this earth is Justice from God....we wouldn't stand a chance. But instead, he gave us mercy through Jesus. Best. Birthday Present. Ever. ;D Thanks for leading me back to this Chapter 7. I sensed that he was talking about more than false prophets... He was talking about Personal Responsibility. Take another look... How true this was in Jesus' time! That's not what that verse says to me. Those who run around saying, "Look at me! I'm religious!" but don't have a personal relationship with Christ are like the "false prophets" Jesus talked about...and yes, finding their way to the eternal life God offers would be more difficult that way because they don't really know God. I don't see what is so difficult about that type of message...it makes sense to me. Let's say you want to get into the most awesome night club in New York because you think that will REALLY raise your social status and more people will want to go out with you. So, you order all the T-shirts from the club online, you can name all the bartenders there, and you can tell all your friends about how awesome it's reported to be. But then Friday night comes along and you're in line and you have absolutely no relationship with the bouncer....do you think you're going to be able to slide in no problem? No, because all you wanted was the status being in the night club would bring you, you didn't want anything the club actually had to offer. No, that's not a perfect example, but this is what I get out of the things you've pointed out from Jesus' words. Make sense? Well, as long as the number of pages this thread can use up is unlimited, then let the fun continue! -Brendan
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Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Mar 16, 2005 18:47:05 GMT -8
Nonetheless, I make a distinction between the object of my faith, which is very real to me, and the very fallible human organizations (and imperfect persons such as myself) that so often manage to mess everything up. Good point. Spirituality and Organized Religion aren't neccessarily the same thing... Yup the "under God" pledge was started in the 50's to highlight the differnces between us and that other evil godless nation Well, you AND your friends are very odd indeed. You haven't even tried to convert the score population yet. I assume that part of the reason why your'e so odd is because you aren't rigid in your religious interpetations. The moral values stuff was a piece of crap. After the election, I tuned in for analysis, and all I heard was moral values, exit polls, blah, blah, blah. We all know why Kerry lost. We knew this even before he got the democratic nomination... The Secular vs. Religious Battle is overhyped at times, but it is definetly there. It's kind of like the Red Sox vs. the Yankees battle. It's just a version of progessivism vs traditonalism. The Evolution battle has been brewing for years. www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/scopes.htm PBS did a good show on that... This I think, is one of the unfortunate byproducts of Organized Religion. Look at what the Catholic Church did to all of the non-canonical Gospels... I think it's ashame that many religious people don't even read thier own books. One of the prolems that Muslims abroad face, is that they are unable to read thier own book because they are illiterate/ uneducated. And this has made them dependent on the interpetation of others. We all know what this can lead too... So Jon, Why do you want to believe that a God exists? What has led to you to this convinction that he exists?... I'm not a Christian, but I'm fascinated by Christian theology. The fact that "Christianity is the only major religion to have as its central event the humiliation of its God," has also lead to the intense debate between Islam and Christianity... And the most important event in Christianity gets devalued every year by the Presence of colored eggs and chocolate bunnies. Only in a American Market!... ;D -Carlton
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Post by Jangles on Mar 16, 2005 20:46:09 GMT -8
Carlton and Brendan's posts are so long, so I thought I would share something quasi-religious I thought about today...
The DaVinci Code will eventually sell more copies than the Bible, at it's current rate ;D The paperback is scheduled to come out at the same time as the fourth installment of George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire (A Feast For Crows), which is between "a few more months" and "a few more months" (a few more months later).
On a serious note, I have never read the DaVinci code...and GRRM can take his time - I don't care.
Sorry (Kuhni especially) to interrupt the flow of the serious arguments going on here...
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Post by Jangles on Mar 16, 2005 21:15:49 GMT -8
And I must say that I am in awe of the discussion on this thread. Sometimes (actually, most times), I really feel like you guys are light years beyond me and my shallow grasp of religion, faith, politics, ethics, and life in general. Em Nah. They just TYPE smarter (and longer), that's all ;D I think all film music fans are equally intelligent in the respect that they don't listen to Ashanti and Blink 182. Sometimes, "Brevity is the soul of wit"...I don't even know what brevity means, but I think it is applicable to my message. Could some explain to me what it means, in a very concise manner? Thanks.
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Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Mar 16, 2005 21:23:11 GMT -8
A personal faith is really the only way true faith can be experienced, no? Can one simply believe in faith? I don't think so....I think either you can have faith (personal faith), or not. A lot of people suscribe to a kind of "group" faith. Why do you believe this? Because Pastor so and so does, or because my church said so. True faith requires you to use your own personal experiences to develop your convictions. In the end your convictions may fall in line with the Church, but real faith is anchored by your own personal life and journey, and examinations... Kind of reminds me of this character named Job... Without the journey, your faith and spirituality almost becomes non-existent. Your personal journey, your life on Earth NOW, is what is the most important (not some afterlife). Now your sounding like my Muslim friend, calling all the Jews backward ;D (It's just a joke). One explanation for the parables was that Jesus wanted to keep us "backwards" and in the dark" Also, remember that Jesus was being a Revolutionary...And a lot of people would argue that the content dosen't change with the context since God (and his message) can not change. Good Point. But it also seems like Jesus was preaching in terms of an ideal (Sermon on the Mount), and he was challenging people to strive for this ideal, even though it is humanely possible. There was also a "harsh reality" to his message: unless you (try) do this, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Many will try but few will make it (but with God all things are possible- God's love is unlimited). And by doing this Jesus' central message is discarded. Jesus challenged the Jews of his time because they were too concerned with the law rather than intent and actions. Is it safe to assume that today Jesus would be more intersted in one's intent and actions rather than the assumed Christain laws: (believe in the Catholic doctrine: Trinity, etc) Jesus broke one of the Commandments (working on the Sabbath) to show that actions are more important than laws or beliefs... (Faith was only important because it could affect one's actions) And how do you know Christ... By trying to follow his "ideal" laws and the Commandments. And Yes, it is OK to fail, but Jesus commandments had less to do with believing than they had to do with intent and actions. Jesus didn't say that the greatest commandment was to believe in God: "I am your God, you should have no other God's beside me. He said it was to "Love your God" (and your nieghbor...). He also didn't say to "love Jesus" or "know me." He said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart all your soul and all your mind. And In the Beatitudes, Jesus promised a lot of things based on one's intent/actions, not thier belief. It can.... There'a a reason why many people say John was the last cannonical Gospel to be written. The word cannot come first. Like Goethe said in Faust, "In the beginning was the Act"... I have issues with the Trinity and the problems it creates. In the gospels, Jesus mentions that David can't be the Messiah becase he calls the him Lord. And if Jesus reigns in heaven he can't be the Lord... It'll be like having two Gods, and as Jesus pointed out, a kingdom that's divided against itself will not stand. ;D ;D Because love isn't Vengeful and love doesn't KILL... So, if I go to an Evangelical Rally and "accept" Jesus, and then proceed to plunder each peach I can get my hands onto, while managing to murder each guy who got in my way. Then say while I was at it, I stole money from the poor and took food from little kids. And then suppose that the police killed me while I was in the middle of the spree. I would still go to heaven because I believed; I'm a Christian. That doesn't sound right... But wasn't god filled with Mercy before he concieved Jesus... ;D Agreed but in this occassion, I would substitue Christ with God. And how do you know if one has a personal relationship with God?... Isn't it by the fruits they bear (their actions), not by what they say or believe. How does a Christian get to "know" God? My senses can't understand this... Maybe this question is too personal. Now I'm utterly lost. Turn that eclipsce in your quote into a Clubs. I've never been to a club in NY.. A quick train ride, and I'm there... but clubs and NYC, and all of those people, and the prices, and me dancing, and don't they play songs in clubs, and the lighting, and the loud sounds and....Ah, No thanks, I will definetly be lost. I think you need a better analogy.... Um... I don't know. If I was an attractive or well-proportioned lady, wouldn't I get my way anyway. Wouldn't you let me into your club? ;D So if I start taking steriods, grow a couple of inches, and increase my social status, then God will let me into heaven. For me, there is no hope... -Carlton
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Post by Hook on Mar 16, 2005 21:27:25 GMT -8
"Brevity is the soul of wit"...I don't even know what brevity means, but I think it is applicable to my message. Could some explain to me what it means, in a very concise manner? Thanks. Because non sequiturs are funny. I'm funny... cuz I'm a non sequitur. ^ ^ ^ See? ;D
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Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Mar 16, 2005 21:33:47 GMT -8
Sometimes, "Brevity is the soul of wit"...I don't even know what brevity means, but I think it is applicable to my message. Could some explain to me what it means, in a very concise manner? Thanks. I am one who defientely can't explain what "brevity" is. I can explain explain what "clutter" is, but I'm not sure if you want me to do that ;D -CG
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Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Mar 16, 2005 21:57:49 GMT -8
Long story short, new girl moves to town, we become best friends, her mother is the new Methodist minister, I start going to church by myself, and I'm baptized at 13 and confirmed at 14. Isn't dubya a Methodist too? We have just wasted more time than you have, that's all... And I'm sure that you're faith and sense of ethics are greater than mine's. Your time will come, Emily. "The first will be the last, and the last will be first"... -Carlton
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Post by Mr. E on Mar 17, 2005 10:35:28 GMT -8
Oh, and Mr. E: Double-posting makes baby Jesus cry. Pfft. What's the point of an afterthought if I have to bury it in my original post?
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