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Post by Jangles on Mar 15, 2005 19:10:58 GMT -8
I worship Christain Lindberg. He is Swedish.
Actually, I go to Roman Catholic church every Sunday, but don't consider myself Catholic...or Roman. My view is a mix between Jens and Peter Simons.
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Post by Jens Dietrich on Mar 15, 2005 19:27:05 GMT -8
I would have thought that someone like Jens could live thier life in a more happy-go-lucky lend-a-hand manner, worriless, and fearless condition, since they do not have to worry about this stuff called "sins" and the vengeful God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, (and Job, Peter, and Jesus). Thankfully for Brendan, he has very little interest in many of the "sins" I enjoy pursuing on a regular basis. Hence, not only does he not need to worry about eternal damnation (not that I do, but whatever), he also saves a hell of a lot of money. My view is a mix between Jens and Peter Simons. Hmmmm, that must be exhausting.
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Post by Demetris Christodoulides on Mar 15, 2005 19:31:50 GMT -8
I am Christian Orthodox.
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Post by Jangles on Mar 15, 2005 19:37:08 GMT -8
Well, I didn't read yours since it was so long, but I thought I may as well be on your side, just for the hell of it...But I read Peter's, and that is definently me.
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Post by Jens Dietrich on Mar 15, 2005 19:40:50 GMT -8
I thought I may as well be on your side, just for the hell of it... An excellent choice, I must say. Oh, if only more people followed your noble example... Where the hell is Scorehawk when you need him?
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Jon Lord
Ghostwriter
Calvinism and Hobbes
Posts: 321
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Post by Jon Lord on Mar 15, 2005 20:29:06 GMT -8
Really? So am I. In fact, my dad is a Methodist minister in Johannesburg.
As someone who grew up with a dad with a church vocation, I can sympathize (not that I'm refering to my dad, who is awesome, but rather the people he had to frequently work with and we all had to be around).
Nonetheless, I make a distinction between the object of my faith, which is very real to me, and the very fallible human organizations (and imperfect persons such as myself) that so often manage to mess everything up.
Just for the sake of it, I'll point out that there are many different groups in the ordeal. I'm a devout Christian, but I believe in the separation of Church and State, that the U.S. was founded mainly by Deists, making children say "under God" (which if I recall correctly was started in during the 50's) in a national pledge is bizarre and actually harmful in a Constantine's "Christendom" kind of way, that gays have the right to marry, etc... I'd bet many of my views don't fall within the "expected" norm, which may just be me being the exception, as I am very weird, except that I have many other devout Christian friends who feel the same as I do.
I think the Christian Right vs. Secular Left angle is played up too much by the media, because it's a simple sell for a 5-minute piece or whatever. I've read several different polls and articles on polls that suggest the whole "moral values" (in their terms) voting turn-out thing wasn't as prominent with the election results as was widely reported.
Contemplate this, young pilgrim!
While I don't see eye to eye with Douglas Adams' final conclusion (though I do plan to finally read the whole "Hitchhiker's Guide" before the movie comes out), I do sympathize with some of his sentiments, and that he at least has a well-thought-out, strongly held viewpoint. It seems so many wander through life never actually sincerely evaluation why they believe what they believe and what it means for existence and why.
I personally am convinced God exists, and while the utmost core of my personal faith never falters, my faith journey has led to immense struggling and grappling with all that it means to exist. I make no claim that I have a great deal figured out, no... but I have a feeling that many who claim to be Christians never truly seek the depths of the faith, and, in turn, what it means for their way of life ...for instance, that Christianity is the only major religion to have as its central event the humiliation of its God, in seeming direct contrast, to me, to the "Gospel of Prosperity" that seems to pervade so much Western Christianity. (I refer to America a lot as I write because I'm an American living in America) That if every American who claims to be a Christian actually lived as Christ did, the consumer-driven economy would collapse. And what does it mean to have the phrase "One Nation Under God" on friggin' money when when the Son of God came, he did not expand his nation's boundaries or seek its economic security but ushered in a spiritual kingdom for personal communion with God, devoid of politics... but, I'm meandering...
As for Mormons, I certainly don't have enough knowledge to really get into a discussion... but I think that whether or not any one Mormon is Christian is between him and Christ, and the same applies to any one who claims to be a "Christian" as well.
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Post by Brendan Anderson on Mar 15, 2005 20:35:15 GMT -8
Just Curious. What convinced you of this? Was your conviction passed onto you by birth or was it something else... I grew up in the Lutheran church and its relatively formal practices. Upon heading to college and spending time in my years after college, I drifted away from the more traditional Lutheran way of doing things as it didn't really make Christ personal to me. Christ and being a Christian became more personal to me through the trials and hard times I've gone through throughout life...the more I rely on God to lead me through those times, the more blessed and happy I've become. I've found several churches during my experiences that have helped me to understand the Bible better as well as provide an outlet for great worship time. Sometimes it's been a Covenant Christian church, sometimes a Presbeterian church, and the church I go to now doesn't even advertise what "denomination" it is....and really, I don't feel it matters so much anymore as long as they make God and the Bible their focus and their center. Yes, but for those who don't believe in God or heaven or any of that have nothing in their future beyond death. Death is the end. This life is all there is. For those with faith in the promise of eternal life from Christ, this life is in the grand scheme of things merely preparation for the life to come. Once Christ is accepted as savior, that salvation cannot be lost and no matter what befalls you in this life, an eternal life in heaven awaits you....and that's a good reason to send "worry" packing. ;D Actually, Christ gaurentees me eternal life in heaven. I'll take him at his word. I follow the teachings of Jesus the best I can. He said that the greatest commandment was that we should love one another and to love our neighbor as ourselves. I enjoy watching Jack VanImpe as much as the next guy. ;D I think Revalation is full of great imagry and prophecy, but I haven't even taken time to really study it to be able to say, "This is what is going to happen when the world ends." What I do know is that Christ will come again to reign over the new heaven and new earth. When? I have no idea. Care to post a Bible reference on that one? Jesus told him to "follow him." And that's what you do when you accept Christ as your savior...you accept that he died for your sins and that he forgives those who ask for forgiveness from their sins. Jesus did indeed say that we should keep "the commandments" but he certainly did not say that if you break a commandment (i.e. you sin) you will go to Hell. Like I said, you cannot lose salvation once you have accepted Christ. But, everyone knowingly sins all the time! If what you just said were true, then NOBODY would get to heaven. Now, if you were to, say, suddenly reject Christ and deny that he is your savior, then I suppose you would be without salvation since you would no longer accept him. I think here you're referring to the time when he was talking about false prophets and those who use the name of God to make themselves look important. (Matthew 7) There, Jesus was saying that those who merely used "religion" to futher their status on earth do not actually know Christ and they will not be given a free ride into heaven. Any other questions? -Brendan
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Post by Brendan Anderson on Mar 15, 2005 20:40:17 GMT -8
Thankfully for Brendan, he has very little interest in many of the "sins" I enjoy pursuing on a regular basis. Hence, not only does he not need to worry about eternal damnation (not that I do, but whatever), he also saves a hell of a lot of money. ;D Priceless. -B
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Tex
Scoring Assistant
"Why so serious?"
Posts: 183
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Post by Tex on Mar 15, 2005 22:07:32 GMT -8
I'm contagious. Does that count?
[glow=red,2,300]PLJ[/glow]
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Post by Jon Broxton on Mar 16, 2005 1:55:23 GMT -8
Meow. But, seriously, all I mean it I don't want this to turn into a slanging match, that's all. Interesting discussion, sharing information, putting actoss viewpoints, intellectual but civil debate. That's all ;D
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MikeP
Orchestrator
Posts: 537
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Post by MikeP on Mar 16, 2005 6:34:01 GMT -8
I was raised Catholic. In college, I quit regularly attending mass, due to a deadly combination of increasing skepticism and inability to wake up Sunday mornings.
I should probably avoid going into the laundry list of problems I had with the religion, so I will simply state what drove the nail into the coffin. During the last elections, Bishops, both nationally and locally, made it quite clear that people with certain beliefs on 'hot button topics' (such as abortion, gay marriage, and what to put on toast in the morning) were not welcome to practice Catholicism. In fact, locally, the new Bishop started removing vocal women groups from the church, as he felt it wasn't their right to be all vocal and stuff. Since my views plainly didn't match those of the church, and since the church clearly didn't want people with differing opinions, I was happy to walk away.
I've always admired the togetherness and support that a church can theoretically offer. My problem is that any religion will be based on a very human, and very fallible interpretation of God. Therefore, I would only be willing to join a church with a "this is how we choose to worship God" view rather than "this is the correct way to worship God" view.
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Post by Christian K on Mar 16, 2005 6:49:15 GMT -8
Well, it may sound as if I am kidding, but this time, it all has its background in me being Bavarian, which means that I was christened Roman-Catholic. Coming from a small village, I used to go into the church very regurlarly until I left primary school. The impressions these 10+ years left on me are:
-uncomfortable seats -freezing in winter -mostly old people unisono chanting the "Rosenkranz" (don't know the English expression) before every service -standing up every 5 minutes for another prayer
It always was a very lethargic experience, and at no point I ever felt as belonging to a larger community, whether as someone who's living together with these people in the church, and as someone who shares the same belief.
Belief...that brings me to the topic of God. Personally, I do not believe that there's a God. Or Angels. Or Heaven, or Hell for that matter. I acknowledge that 2,000 years ago, a man called Jesus walked this Earth; I do not acknowledge, however, that he worked miracles and stuff like that (when many people get together and/or contribute to a book, you can expect some additions and/or changes here and there). That he opened peoples' heart, and encouraged them to do certain things, yes...some people have the power to evoke strong emotional reactions in other people and "make them see the light", if you want to put that way.
I totally resent any form of religion, though. I agree with what Peter and a few others said about that each religion has one or a few interesting and positive facets. However, when I look at the history of what has been done to Earth and Mankind in the name of religion, and that includes everything from the Islamic Expansion in the early Middle Ages, the Crusades that followed, the massacres of Natives all around the world (mainly in the name of the Christian God) and even 9/11, then I firmly believe that religion is not a good idea. Also, I loathe people who refer to God when wanting to make, explain or support their deeds (and all who know me from Filmtracks know that I'm referring to one particular person here). Also, I stoutly resist every attempt to convert me and/or convince that *this* faith or *that* form of religion is the best one.
If one does get power, courage, hope from his or her belief, then I (try to) accept their point of view. If it helps to live their life, then I have no right to mock them or their faith (although I have done this a couple of times when I lost patience).
All in all, I do have some sort of faith (I cannot define it better than that), but I resent any form of religion. Which makes me an agnostic, I guess, and I can live with that.
Well, my two(-thousand) cents. My apologies if I offended anybody with my words.
Christian
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Post by christopher on Mar 16, 2005 9:45:39 GMT -8
Wow, there's been a lot of discussion on this thread since my original post. I don't have a lot of time right now, but I would like to respond to a couple of things. First, as emily pointed out, the Witness is about the amish, who like quakers, shakers, and other 19th century religious movements often get confused with Mormons. I did grow up in the west--Utah to be precise. There are about 2 million people in Utah and roughly 3/4 of them are LDS (Latter Day Saints)--an acronym we use for ourselves not to be confused with LSD There are more mormons in the western U.S. than anywhere else in the world per capita, but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is an international church. there are now more members of it outside the U.S. than in. There are only 12 million members total, but given that there were less than 5 million when my parents were growing up, 12 is pretty impressive (7th day adventists, for reference, have approximately the same amount of members). The church didn't start in Utah, however. It started in New York and was founded by Joseph Smith. If any of you would like a fantastic basic explanation of mormon doctrine check out the book "Our Search For Hapiness" by M. Russell Ballard. If anyone's interested I could probably find a copy to send you. Anyway, polygamy has been a very misunderstood topic for a long time. The dateline specials, etc., about polygamy typically portray polygamists as mormons. This is not the case. Anyone practicing polygamy and claiming to be LDS is lying. The church does not condone the practice, and anyone who enters into it is excommunicated. There are not as many polygamists in Utah as one might expect, after having watched a dateline special--only a few communities, and they are not restricted to Utah, either. Mormons don't wear bonnetts, own horse and buggies, have really long beards, churn our own butter, or have multiple wives. You can't pick a mormon out of a crowd--we live normal lives, like anyone. Some reasons people think we're a little strange is that we don't drink alcohol, coffee, or tea and we don't smoke. Most of the males, and many of the females, in the church serve a two-year, full-time mission when we are 19-25 years old (I served in Michigan, my brother will be leaving for Cambodia in a coulple weeks). We have large families typically--I have 3 brothers and 2 sisters, which is a pretty average size. Those are probably the things that are the most different about us. Some famous mormons you may have heard of: Steve Young (former 49ers quarterback), Gladys Knight, Steven Covey (the Seven Habits for Highly Effective People author), the guy who owns all the Marriott hotels (his name is Marriott, too), Danny Ainge (former NBA player and coach), among others. Brendan, I think your convictions are great. I'm impressed with your boldness to voice and defend them. Way to go. I want to answer your question about the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ at length, but I don't have the time now. Perhaps the next time I post.... I hope some of this cleared up a couple questions. I'm happy to answer any others. Rumors about my church abound, and most of them are innacurate, so I'm always happy to set the record straight. Thanks for sharing your beliefs with me. It's very commendable to stand up for what you believe, no matter what it is. Thanks for being so civil, everyone. --Chris
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Post by Jens Dietrich on Mar 16, 2005 10:45:29 GMT -8
What can I say, Brendan? I'm a hedonist. Whenever there's immediate sensual pleasures within my grasp, I must have them. mostly old people unisono chanting the "Rosenkranz" (don't know the English expression) before every service You're talking about the Rosary, obviously. Along with the Stations of the Cross, it's the main reason I despise Catholicism. Physical pain as manifestation of spiritual pain -- ugh. Anyone practicing polygamy and claiming to be LDS is lying. The church does not condone the practice, and anyone who enters into it is excommunicated. You've just crushed one of my favorite fantasies.
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Post by Brendan Anderson on Mar 16, 2005 12:21:24 GMT -8
What can I say, Brendan? I'm a hedonist. Whenever there's immediate sensual pleasures within my grasp, I must have them. I just got the mental image of you sitting in that Brazilian restaurant on Sunset Blvd. in Hollywood, eating pizza while the big sign behind your head through the window kept flashing "Nude Girls!" If ever there was a more perfect example of the wordless commentary of fate.... ;D Well, as soon as appears on Dateline, you know it must be a lie... -Brendan
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