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Post by Craig Richard Lysy on Jan 9, 2010 9:41:51 GMT -8
Well it is a new year and time to discuss the next issue on the progressive agenda; Immigration reform. Here is a recent article from CNN;
Washington (CNN) -- Legalization of the more than 11 million unauthorized immigrants in the United States would raise wages, increase consumption, create jobs and generate more tax revenue, two policy institutes say in a joint report Thursday.
The report by the Center for American Progress and the American Immigration Council estimates that "comprehensive immigration reform that legalizes currently unauthorized immigrants and creates flexible legal limits on future immigration" would yield at least $1.5 trillion in added U.S. gross domestic product over a 10-year period.
"This is a compelling economic reason to move away from the current 'vicious cycle' where enforcement-only policies perpetuate unauthorized migration and exert downward pressure on already low wages, and toward a 'virtuous cycle' of worker empowerment in which legal status and labor rights exert upward pressure on wages," study author Raul Hinojosa-Ojeda writes.
The study looks at three scenarios: deportation of undocumented workers, temporary worker programs and legalization of the current undocumented population. Deportation would lead to a loss of $2.6 trillion in gross domestic product over 10 years, the report says, while a worker program would lead to a gain of $792 billion. Full legalization would lead to the best economic results, the study says.
First some Webster definitions;
Amnesty: the act of an authority (as a government) by which pardon is granted to a large group of individuals
Pardon: a warrant granting release from punishment for an offense
My position; 1. Secure the borders since without this all reform is futile. 2. No amnesty, instead create a path to citizenship that includes sanctions/fines. If you break a law you must be fined.
Since I propose punishment via fines, my proposal by definition is neither amnesty or a pardon.
In my judgment this will add millions of hardworking tax payers, afford workers protection from exploitation and increase national productivity. I live in an immigrant community (Hispanic-Asian) - I can drive miles and not see a white face. These folks are good hardworking people and I believe would make a fine addition to the tapestry that is our wonderful nation.
Lastly, this approach is consistent with my secular ethics and Christian faith.
With all due sincerity.
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Post by Chris Tilton on Jan 9, 2010 10:35:42 GMT -8
Or how about aggressively going after businesses that hire illegals and fining them. I'll bet that can generate some income. I'd be interested in how Jon feels. He spent a long time, filling out a litany of forms, and paid thousands of dollars to become a US citizen. Jon, how would that make you feel if those who subverted the system by coming here illegally were then rewarded for their efforts?
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cheno
Conductor
Posts: 1,012
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Post by cheno on Jan 9, 2010 13:01:50 GMT -8
Yup, those Mexicans got it good. I bet Jon would rather have their situation, having to leave their whole family behind because their government doesnt give one lick about whether or not they survive.
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Post by Craig Richard Lysy on Jan 9, 2010 13:37:01 GMT -8
Chris - Or how about aggressively going after businesses that hire illegals and fining them. Indeed. Actually, I forgot to include this. Yes, nation wide mandatory compliance with the E-Verify System would have to be included in any reform effort.
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Post by TJ on Jan 9, 2010 13:38:10 GMT -8
Don't they already do that?
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Post by Jon Broxton on Jan 9, 2010 13:50:41 GMT -8
I've got one foot in two camps here. On the one hand, yes, I paid thousands of dollars and waited nearly a year, filled in all the right forms, jumped through the right hoops, had a medical, and everything, before eventually moving to the United States. I am now very happy here, I pay my taxes, and feel like I'm a productive member of society. Part of me thinks "well, I went and did it properly, why should others just get to come to the United States for free".
On the other hand, living where I do, I can see how illegal immigrants are so ingrained into California society especially, it will be a massively difficult task to untangle them from it. I can drive across the agricultural areas of Oxnard or Camarillo near Cal State Channel Islands and see thousands of people, bent double in the blazing sun, picking strawberries or whatever, and guarantee that a lot of them are illegals. The agricultural industry is hugely important to the area, and employers will be paying these people below minimum wage to do back-breaking work, and the economics of it all keeps grocery store prices down. The same can be said of a lot of manual labor work; one thing you can say about a lot of immigrants is that they work REALLY hard for their small incomes. But then again, paying immigrants below minimum wage makes it more difficult for citizens who want to work for minimum wage to get a job, because they are priced out of the market.
And this is where I have some sympathy for them; I came from a relatively comfortable lifestyle, into a relatively comfortable lifestyle. I wasn't fleeing poverty, or living a life of no prospects in the UK. Some of these immigrants, though, DID flee abject poverty, are working for a pittance (which is still more than they would get at home) and are *still* sending money back to Mexico or Guatemala or wherever to help their families.
I don't have an easy answer, because I don't think there is one. I absolutely agree that something has to be done, and Craig's proposals make sense. I just think it's going to be really, really tough, and it has to be done with sympathy and empathy for the illegals because when all's said and done they are just trying to make the best out the poor financial circumstances into which they were born, and are trying to help their families.
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Post by Chris Tilton on Jan 9, 2010 14:16:11 GMT -8
Well, Jon, you are very right that illegal immigrants are ingrained into California society (and some other states as well), and perhaps there is no easy way, or no way at all to untangle them from it. However, I think that if you come over here for a better life illegally, or a company or a farm intends to cut corners by hiring illegals, then you must suffer the consequences if caught. I don't think it is justified in rewarding anyone for it, especially since if you do that, it will only show that the US has just given in, and will encourage more to come across the border illegally without fear of consequences. They already use our roads, our police, our hospitals, but do not contribute to the infrastructure of it all.
Maybe strawberries don't need to be so cheap. Besides, do we know that the money saved by hiring illegals is being passed on to the consumer? Perhaps a small portion is because they need to be competitive in this incestuous market, but I guarantee you they are taking a large chunk of that savings for themselves.
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cheno
Conductor
Posts: 1,012
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Post by cheno on Jan 9, 2010 14:39:18 GMT -8
Bottom line is the problem will never be solved until Mexico gets fixed. And Mexico has almost zero chance of getting fixed. People are going to do whatever it takes to survive.
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Post by Jon Broxton on Jan 9, 2010 14:59:34 GMT -8
I entirely agree, Chris. I think SOMETHING has to be done to stop this, or make it right, and make it fair for everyone. I just have no idea what that something is.
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Post by Hook on Jan 9, 2010 15:06:31 GMT -8
Fining businesses who hire illegals would require an entirely new government effort plan and task force to implement it. They would have to figure out a way of, not only proving their employees are illegals (that's the easy part -- though businesses may not even include them in their official pay roll paper work), what laws they're breaking, but keeping an eye on them over time. That's a lot of waste right there, I would say. I think illegals factor greatly in your economy. Keep them out and prices will rise for plenty of products. Also, I call bullshit on the "illegals don't pay taxes". This is something most Americans don't know (why, that is beyond me) but the IRS, by law, can't share information with other federal agencies. So, yes, there are many businesses run by illegals in the U.S. that foster economic growth whose owners pay taxes (through a different kind of form) and who are contributing to the economy. Get your facts straight. Bottom line is the problem will never be solved until Mexico gets fixed. And Mexico has almost zero chance of getting fixed. People are going to do whatever it takes to survive. This.
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Post by Craig Richard Lysy on Jan 10, 2010 8:00:06 GMT -8
Cheno - Bottom line is the problem will never be solved until Mexico gets fixed. And Mexico has almost zero chance of getting fixed. People are going to do whatever it takes to survive. Yes my friend you state the root cause which has no easy fix. We actually are seeing this in Europe. Third world migration from Africa to first world countries. Italy, Spain and France are all struggling and have stopped pontificating about our efforts. This is inevitable, hence why securing the borders is so essential as a first step. Desperation, poverty and human aspiration to seek a better life will remain powerful motivators. I fear the lack of portable water and the violence it spawns for control dwindling resources will in the next ten years also begin fueling massive dislocation and emigration. Read about this already happening in Kenya. Syria and Iraq have lost thousands of villages from Turkey damming the Tigris and Euphrates up stream. India is doing the same thing with the Indus - the life blood of Pakistan. Anyway, the human aspiration for a better life is a potent motivator and this nation must end this bipartisan fighting and forge a consensus. I hope we do.
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Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Jan 10, 2010 18:18:49 GMT -8
Don't they already do that? Yeah, but they do it under the table...
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Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Jan 10, 2010 19:05:19 GMT -8
Maybe strawberries don't need to be so cheap. If strawberries aren't so cheap, then I (and others) will have to stop buying them... Then CA/US businesses will suffer and we will then have to import strawberries from China! All I want to do is eat cheap and delicious berries, why is it so complex? Part of me thinks "well, I went and did it properly, why should others just get to come to the United States for free". Because, they have seen An American Tail II: Fievel Goes West. ;D Yup, this is a point that Pat Buchanan frequently brings up: buchanan.org/blog/why-import-workers-now-3186Last week, I was watching BBC news, and there was a short segment how the UK had granted citizenship rights (?) to Gurkha's who had fought for Britain in the military. Now, they are arriving in the UK, with little money, poor English skills, and so forth. Jon, what's your take on that? news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8439870.stm-CG
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Post by Jon Broxton on Jan 10, 2010 19:24:41 GMT -8
Last week, I was watching BBC news, and there was a short segment how the UK had granted citizenship rights (?) to Gurkha's who had fought for Britain in the military. Now, they are arriving in the UK, with little money, poor English skills, and so forth. Jon, what's your take on that? If you're talking specifically about the Gurkhas, then I absolutely agree that they should be given citizenship rights. It doesn't matter that they have little money and poor English skills; they earned their right to citizenship by their years of dedicated service to the British military. What IS an issue is all the former Eastern Bloc citizens (Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, Estonians, Lithuanians etc) coming to the UK under the European Union Schengen laws and working for well below minimum wage as chambermaids, cleaners, waiters, etc etc. They are the "Mexicans" of the UK, and are causing some of the same problems there.
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rkeaveney
Orchestrator
Tell all your friends
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Post by rkeaveney on Jan 12, 2010 15:35:54 GMT -8
You're telling me the line-up of U.S. citizens interested in picking strawberries is more than three people long? Give me a break. These people do the work that no one else wants to. They aren't displacing jobs, they are filling a need, and facilitating getting food on people's table. Raising food prices does nothing to help the ever-expanding waistlines of Americans. You want to price fresh food out of their reach, then by all means, bring in the University graduates to pull up carrots all day long.
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