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Post by Brendan Anderson on Mar 17, 2005 13:31:37 GMT -8
real faith is anchored by your own personal life and journey, and examinations... I would rather say my faith is anchored by God, not me...He provides strength of faith when I rely on Him. As it says (I forget the page right now...sorry): "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Without God, my faith would result in nothing. I wouldn't say that either. What is MOST important is abiding in Christ during this life so that I can reside with him in the next. Sight should never be lost of the eternal life to come...compared to the abundant life that awaits in heaven, this life on earth is merely preparation. Hehe...no. It wasn't the keeping of old Jewish law that was backwards, it was the fact that some of the chief priests had turned it into a very impersonal and faithless exercise by Jesus' day. Jesus was there to point people back in the right direction: towards God and the life to come. I'm not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. The Parables certainly do have many layers of meaning to be studied, but to say that the aim was to keep everyone in the dark? That makes no sense... Again, I don't see how you can throw the context out completely. Jesus was a real man, teaching real people in a real time period and in a real culture...to ignore those facts would lead to partly missing the point of what he was saying much of the time. You're right that the message is still the same, but the context of when/how it was delivered is often important as well... You're right...it's impossible for a person to reach Christ's perfect ideal...the only perfect one of course is God himself. But the more we here on earth strive toward being more Christ-like, the more blessings we will find ourselves experiencing during our time here on earth. I still think you're pushing the words a little. In his teachings, Jesus was illustrating the ways to receive the kingdom of heaven and the ways that would not lead to the kingdom of heaven. Yes, it was conditional in that you need to actually know Christ and accept him, but it wasn't a condition in the sense of "You must help at least 3 lepers per day and then you've got yourself a ticket." I'm with you so far... Faith was "only" important? What do you mean, that faith was merely a vehicle to something else, or are you emphasizing that faith alone is the most important? If it's the latter, I agree...if it's the former, then I....don't...as much.... Don't forget prayer! That's a HUGE part of knowing Christ...you can't know someone unless you have conversations with them. Yes, but now I'll return to John, who reminds: "...so that whoever BELIEVES in him may have eternal life." You can't remove belief and faith completely as you are focusing on all this "action" and "works" stuff. It can if the Word is God as it says. "The Word was God and the Word was with God." Here John is referring to Jesus as "The Word"...Jesus is the same as God...the same being. A part of the three-in-one. But Jesus IS God. God is Jesus. It's all the same being, the same entity. When Jesus was on earth, he was fully man AND fully God. God incarnate. Remember, God is omnipresent...He can be in as many places at once as He wants to be. It's impossible to have division between Jesus and God becuase they are one and the same. Have you read Shakespeare? ;D Kidding. You are right: God is love. God so loved the world that he sacrificed His son for the sins of mankind. I ask you then, ever since sending His son to die for the sins of man, what has become of God's "vengence?" You're off track already....you either accept Jesus or you don't...you can't "accept" him and just pretend to do it...that doesn't count. First of all, if you truly accepted Jesus, then I would sincerely hope that those activities wouldn't be something you would feel the need to engage in since you could place your burdens on God....BUT being a fallible human, I suppose you could become misguided and go on some kind of rampage...but even a sin like that is forgiveable in God's eyes. Yes. Well, you're not always going to be able to tell just by looking at them...you can look for the indicators Jesus talked about: the "fruits they bear" but it's not always cut and dry.... Then give it a try! You get to "know" God through reading the Bible, prayer, fellowship with other believers, discussion with pastors and ministers, more prayer, and learning to put your trust in Him for all things in life. I think it's, as you said, very personal for each person...at least it should be. There's no one-stop-shop McChurch that is going to get you to know God. It's a process I think... Never mind then... -Brendan
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Jon Lord
Ghostwriter
Calvinism and Hobbes
Posts: 321
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Post by Jon Lord on Mar 17, 2005 13:32:47 GMT -8
It's not "pretty sickening", Jon. Apologies, Jens, I was not speaking of the Easter bunny or its historical origins per se, but merely using his quote to further rant on the commercialization of my faith by holiday-sales-driven corporate society and such, which is something that always gets me going. I have no problems with easter egg hunts and chocolate bunnies, and have enjoyed many in my day. I was basically just using his quote as a springboard for other thoughts I had concerning the "Christian Nation" thing. I could have left it out entirely. I should be more careful with my rantings. And "only in a American Market"? What's he smoking? My eyes just glazed over that. I've come to just expect Carlton to take some "leaps" when reading his essays. ;D -Jon
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Tex
Scoring Assistant
"Why so serious?"
Posts: 183
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Post by Tex on Mar 17, 2005 13:43:30 GMT -8
Keep in mind, Jon, there is no FURTHER commercialization of the faith. The faith and their holidays have been commercialized since time immemorial. People complain about the bastardization of Christmas as if it's a new phenomenon, but, really, it's been like this since at least the 1850s in this country. The British had this problem going back even further. It's merely a byproduct of urbanization -- we escaped a lot of it for awhile because we were a primarily agrarian society before that time frame, with a socialized barter/trade system used amongst neighbors. Catholics were doing it with indulgences well before that. Evangelicals are dabbling in it now. I'm not saying it's right, but it's nothing new and it'll never go away.
I mean, the greatest example of the commercialization of religion is right in the bible. What did Jesus do at the temple? Overturned the tables, baby! Take that, capitalistic pig-dogs -- that's right, there's a NEW savior in town! Get lost. ;D
[glow=red,2,300]PLJ[/glow]
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Post by Brendan Anderson on Mar 17, 2005 13:46:11 GMT -8
And Brendan: Tisk-tisk . . . does David Arnold know that you've put other false gods before him? ;D It's all about opportunity, my friend! If I don't put God above all else, I won't have life in eternal heavenly bliss after I die....and for me, heavenly bliss is listening to Independence Day. ;D Ergo, God comes first so that I can have David Arnold forever. ;D -Brendan, uber-nerd
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Post by Jon Broxton on Mar 17, 2005 13:50:45 GMT -8
It's all about opportunity, my friend! If I don't put God above all else, I won't have life in eternal heavenly bliss after I die....and for me, heavenly bliss is listening to Independence Day. ;D Ergo, God comes first so that I can have David Arnold forever. I love that your idea of a perfect afterlife is being able to listen to cool David Arnold scores for all eternity. Hell, if heaven is a place where all film scores are great, James Horner is original again, and I can listen to him forever without fear of reprisal from others - I might just convert back
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Tex
Scoring Assistant
"Why so serious?"
Posts: 183
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Post by Tex on Mar 17, 2005 14:11:46 GMT -8
Woof.Sounds more like MY version of hell, to me. So basically you're a spiritual stalker on the astrodimensional plane? Are you sure the devil didn't have a hand in this? [glow=red,2,300]PLJ[/glow]
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Jon Lord
Ghostwriter
Calvinism and Hobbes
Posts: 321
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Post by Jon Lord on Mar 17, 2005 14:16:29 GMT -8
It's nothing new, of course (these days, what really is?), Tex, but does that mean it shouldn't bother me a great deal? Not that it keeps me up at night (no, I value my beauty sleep...), but it does bother me.
And I definitely think it can be further commercialized, because everything is going to get further commercialized, as the entire world begins to become more corporate-oriented, and one day Haliburton-Sony-Proctor & Gamble owns half of the continent.
-Jon
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Post by Hook on Mar 17, 2005 16:43:53 GMT -8
At the risk of insulting everyone here, I'm going to lay out my thoughts in a very abriged manner. I do this because I'm basically the only one to contribute with moronic statements and stupid jokes. Broxton's subsequent words of encouragement don't make me feel any better. --------------------------First of all, the question posed in the title of this thread deserves answering. Are people here religious? Most of them aren't. What is a religion, anyway? A set guidelines. The constitutional law of faith. But it doesn't work as in a compiler system, where interpretations, while flexible, follow rules that cannot be bent. Religion doesn't work out that way. Everyone's religion is different. People follow a lifestyle that suits them. Jon (Smalltown) follows his own beat as well as Brendan. And you know what? That's great. Because their inexistent dependence on someone's restricted interpretation of man-made text has little to do with their faiths. But now we get to the funny business: Faith. Either you have it or you don't. I'm very happy for everyone here who's had a major revelation starring the lord Jesus Christ, but, guess what, I haven't. I don't see anything to convince me that there is someone out there who cares for me, either physically or spiritually. I've never had a close encounter of the holy kind. I'm not a logic whore to the extent of naturally inducing vulcan puke, but I do study why things work out the way they do. Know what I've found? That we don't know crap. There is so little information out there in regards to our universe that I can't have an opinion on something I don't know. Ok, fine, you say. So, what does that have to do with belief? Frankly, nothing. I believe Robert Blake took out his wife, but I can't prove it (and neither could the prosecution, either). I've said, on this board, that I think AIDS is the result of a blunder. I believe a fly could get lost for days inside George W.'s skull cavity. I can't prove any of that. But why do I believe it? I believe it because I feel it's right. As much as I come across as a cold intellectual to some people, mostly those who have just met me, I lean towards the intuitive side of things. I think some things are a certain way simply because I feel like they might be. I actually feel that. With JC, his homies and sugar daddy, I don't get that same feeling. I respect those of you who say you have a connection with your faith. I respect it because I can relate to it (not that I don't respect things I don't relate to). I know what you feel. Hell, I spend many a time thinking what it's like to be other people and trying to feel the same things they do, based on their background and what I get from them (this "get from them" call it what you want. 'waves', 'energy', 'b.o.', 'bs', etc. I don't believe in baptizing objects to acknowledge their existence). I like to do that. However, while I fancy myself in submerging in their, supposed by me, emotions, I don't share them. I know that's not me. Somehow, I feel that's wrong. That said, I can in no way believe a single thing creationists say. I can't believe there was a man named Jesus who did miracles. I do believe he existed, even though it can't be proven (don't look at me like that... you can't prove for sure Jesus existed. Google, damn it. Google well.) so you might say I "believe" in Jesus. Do I believe in God? I usually don't know what that means. I don't believe in my chair, though I'm sitting on it right now. Do I believe "he" "exists"? When I ask for a description of this fine gentleman, I must then say that I don't. Following this reasoning of "believing", I don't believe in institutions, I don't believe in heaven or hell, I don't believe in man kind's unique status quo within the animal kingdom, and I don't believe life is exclusive to Earth and it's so important as to warrant God's attention. And, worst of all, I don't care. I'm scared of dying. Death is not a pretty thing to contemplate. Fundies and psychologists will jump and say "Ha! That's why you don't believe! You rot of self-importance. You want to live forever and accepting your humanity and your weakness before God would make you accept your inferiority, something you are not willing to do, so you reject God and all he stands for! This is the devil's way!". Yeah, whatever. Truth is, I know (because I think I know) that I'm nothing in this very real and very active universe. I'm not important. Beyond death there's nothing for me. Not knowing what "nothing" is like scares me, which is a normal human response. So, I'll try my best at life and when death comes, that will be it. I'll live in the memory of those who knew me, if at all, and after that, of the things I made possible. If I don't make it here, now, I won't make in the afterlife. There are some theological complications, though. Say that I'm wrong. There is a God. I'm f***ed. I'm not getting into heaven because I never admitted to "knowing" or "accepting" Jesus. If not Jesus, then Shiva or a bronze donkey. I see this as greatly unfair. So, it must be a combo of what you did in life, how much you repented, and what you did to accept Jesus? If Ghandi didn't make the cut, then what chance do I have? Well, that's for you theists to decide. And, to wrap things up, here is a list of what I won't respect, ever: People who say "Wow, I don't get any of this! There must be a God!". Bleh. "My family raised me this way, and my mom and pop are never wrong!". "The Church and the Holy Book say so". "Science is wrong because it contradicts the level of intelligence I'm able to handle". "It makes perfect sense (scripture... all kinds), you're the dumb one". "I'm better than you, cuz you're going to hell". You know what? How about a big, hearty NO to that one?
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Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Mar 18, 2005 12:17:29 GMT -8
As it says (I forget the page right now...sorry): "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Without God, my faith would result in nothing. You just brought back a flashback. I used to hear this words every moring: I can do all things through Christ with streghtens me...." But without this life on earth you can't have an after-life. So that makes this Life on Earth the MOST important for believers and non-believers... Agreed. And the Conclusion is that sometimes LAWS need to be broken ;D That's what it says in one of the gospels (either Mark or Luke). Jesus spoke in parables to fufill the prophesy and to keep things " in the dark." It makes sense to the effect that it raises up the Teacher and it becomes a fufillment conversion technique. Parables are supposed to have hidden and ambigious meanings.... Context (culture. language, time. etc) is important in terms of better understanding the message, but the context still doesn't change the content... I need Christopher's opinion on this. I don't think the primary condition was to accept and know Christ, I think the primary condition was the way in which you lived your life (intent, actions, etc). I'm talking about the former, but this is VERY debatable... I forgot all about this (soliloquy) aspect.... I'm not removing it complety. I just removing it from the apex where certain religions have placed it... And in that John verse isn't there like a dangling pronoun (I forget the term), Can't "Him" refer to the "God who so loved the world"instead of His Son... But the word can not exist without the Act. And according to this, not only is Jesus God, everybody is God... So If I believe in God (and not Jesus), I will get to heaven since they're both the same... No I haven't read Shakespeare outside of the required HS readings (Romeo and Juliet, The Tempest, Hamlet, Much Ado About Nothing)... "What has become of God's 'vengence'?" Nothing. "God doesn't change. God is All-LOVE, God was never Vengeful..." How am I off track? Suppose I believed 100% in the Apostle's Creed, that I accepted that Jesus was God, and That he died for my sins. By your reasoning I am guaranteed a spot in heaven. So I'm entitled to sin all I want, since Jesus already died for my sins. I can Rape and BTK (bind torture and kill).... Hey if I'm a Christian, I'm a choosen person. Let the Rampage begin (and they though the BTK guy and Brain Nichols were bad). Someone please Rain on this Parade, "Say it ain't so" I agree. Bush can used as an Example ;D I'll have to post about My "tries"; I never did answer the original question.... I'm a big fan of literature so I've read parts of the Bible (Genesis, Job, Gospels), but prayer, fellowship, and trusting isn't for me. And you're right, Spirituality IS a process, and it does not have to be connected to Religion... -Carlton
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Emily
Ghostwriter
Posts: 239
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Post by Emily on Mar 18, 2005 13:23:29 GMT -8
I'm surprised that nobody's whipped up our old First Church of the Mystic Knights of the Oingo Boingo (not only a member, also a founder!) Whoa, hold up! As a worshipper of all things Elfman and Boingo, I am horrified by my lack of awareness of this. I want in! Um...careful there, Jangles/Tromboja. You'd be surprised by a lot of what I listen to, and I happen to like the newest Ashanti song (what can I say? It's very grooveable). Just wondering--any Jehovah's Witnesses out there? Em
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Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Mar 18, 2005 13:24:26 GMT -8
Before this thread gets officially buried, I'll start my dreaded confession and my religious indoctrination story. Please don't turn this into an inferno... ;D First, I will answer the question: "Who's Religious?" I, Carlton the Barbarian, am NOT religious. I do not go to church. I have no religion, and God is someone that I haven't gotten to know yet... So, this makes me like the sixth person here to officially declare myself a heathen. (I wonder whose tallying up the results.) Is there a heathen majority here yet?... Like most people here I was brainwashed, I mean raised, in a Christian environment. I have no recollection of attending church on a regular basic, until I was in the fourth grade, but I have heard that as a baby, I spent a lot of time in church, since I wasn't one of God's healthiest creations... As a youngster, I do remember walking to one of the local Catholic churches on bright Sunday mornings. Each time I was there, I looked forward to the priest giving the signal for everyone to walk around the church greeting each other, since this meant that the service (the kneeling, the standing, and the repeating of phrases) was almost over... And at last I could get some Donuts and juice from the room in the back. ;D As I type this, I can hear the closing music playing. Maybe this is where the genesis of my love for organs, choirs, and playing with Holy Water began... In 7/8th grade, I was no longer dragged to a Catholic church, but instead I was transported to a Pentecostal church (my grandmother's cousin was married to the pastor). I must admit that I spent a lot of time in this church sleeping. I was going through a video-game phase, so I never really slept on Saturday, Just rested on Sunday. ;D The people there were great, but I just couldn't stand being in church ALL DAY, especially since I really didn't believe in Jesus. But the food was good, and so was the piano player and singers, though I never did sing or worship, since I couldn't understand why God wanted humans to worship him (and since I'm somewhat of an introvert)... I should also mention something about my education, since religion played a huge part in it. After 6th grade, I went an all boy's Catholic Prepatory school. So I had somewhat of a religious education from 7th -12th grade. I will never forgot some of these religion classes. I'm going to go down memory lane for a little while, so please excuse me. In 7th and 8th grade, my religion teacher was Sr. Geraldine, an older Sr from a different convent, who was steadily losing here senses. Imagine what this religion class was like. Utter Chaos. In 9th grade, I had an eccentric, domineering religion teacher, Fr. Matt. This is one the best classes I've ever had. He basically gave out all of the exam questions with the answers, on the first day of class- tons of sheets with questions and answers designed to test your memory. This class was cool because a simple command of "You out", "180 son", or a flickering wrist would mean that you would have to spend the rest of the class standing up in the hallway, by locker 180. So whoever laughed when Fr. Matt moaned had to test their legs outside of the classroom.... Then there were those who stood in the back of classroom if they forgot their assignment pad or something like that (there were also the occasional volunteer standers, who stood to keep themselves awake). I can hear Fr. Matt's voice now yelling, "Uhhhhh, Eyeballs son, Where's your assignment pad, Read the sheets, AN ALL-LOVING GOD DOESN'T KILL PEOPLE GOOD OR BAD." In 10th grade, I had two religion teachers, Mr.. Decina and Mr.. Burokas. I liked Mr.. Decina a lot since he had taught my uncle and he knew my family. Unfortunately, he passed away during the semester. I will never forget him and his expressive lectures. One minute he'd be talking in a soft voice and the next minute he'd be screaming "Jesus, Son of Daaaavid have MEERRRCY on Me."... Sophomore year, in religion class I went from being the favorite student (of Mr. Decina) to being a suspected cheater (by Mr. Burokas). Mr.. Burokas brought out my playful side. He always suspected that my friend and I were cheaters. I'll never forget the time I wrote a message on my hand, right before an exam, and then towards the end I made it seem like he finally had caught me in the act of cheating. After minutes of debating, he finally pried open my hand, only to read the words "I DO NOT Cheat" (Actually my friend and I had memorized the test beforehand but he never found out). And then there's the time I got in trouble for paraphrasing Mr.. B in an email I sent out from another student's account... Well, I should probably finish answering the initial question. I am not a religious person because I have always lacked faith. I will probably never become a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu (do people actually convert to this religion), even though many Christian Missionary types (Jehovah Witness, etc) have shown concern for my soul. It's like they spot out that I'm a heathen. I always try to politely listen to what they have to say, because I can see that it makes them feel better (it's like raving about a great score), but sometimes I am disappointed with their familiarity with the Gospels. Sometimes I am even worried about them, especially if it feels like they use their religion as a mask, a cult-like drug, to mask their unhappiness. For those MMUK-ers who are worrying about my soul, don't worry, because there is always the possibility that someone could covert me, that someone being an attractive female, who wears glasses, etc... Personally, I'm not a big fan of organized religion. I could go over the reasons why, but I don't want to offend anybody. I do harbor some negative feelings towards the Hindu religion, but this is probably because I have a stereotypical view of their religion. If anyone could dispel my ignorance of this religion ( or Buddhism) go ahead... As you have already guessed , I'm a secularist. I do respect people's spiritual side, but I'm usually not a big fan of their "God". Do I believe in God? This is a difficult question for me to answer because I don't know if "he" exists, and at this point in my life I don't have strong enough reasons to want to believe in a God. Right now, I'm not a "radical atheist" because the complexities of life, and the beauty found in life (Music, etc.) makes me want to belief in some "God-like entity,"... But I also think that there's a good chance that all of this is just Random. Let them find life on Uranas. ;D I also wouldn't call myself an agnostic because I do believe that if there is a God or Creator, chances are we can learn something about him, from his creations... But I think that most of what is written down now has very little to do with a "God." Anyway, I find a lot of religious stuff to be humorous (pictures of the Pope, the video below, and so forth). news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/21/newsid_2565000/2565197.stmIf I offended anyone, they can take comfort in the fact that if they are right, I'm going to Hell (with good company ;D). All of This is confusing isn't it? In the end I'll probably label myself as a semi-agnostic because I'm Carlton the Barbarian, and I have no tongue for it... -Carlton
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Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Mar 18, 2005 13:27:28 GMT -8
Just wondering--any Jehovah's Witnesses out there? Those Jehovah's Witnesses are funny? What if I said, I was a Jehovah's Witness... -CG
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Post by Jens Dietrich on Mar 18, 2005 13:29:21 GMT -8
Those Jehovah's Witnesses are funny? What if I said, I was a Jehovah's Witness... Huh?
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Post by Carlton the Barbarian on Mar 18, 2005 13:32:31 GMT -8
You don't find them funny. I'm not going to throw blood at them, but their beliefs are Wacky... -CG
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Post by Jens Dietrich on Mar 18, 2005 13:34:05 GMT -8
You don't find them funny. I'm not gong to throw blood at them, but their beliefs are Wacky... Ah, I see. It was the comma after "said" that threw me off.
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