|
Post by Christian K on Oct 29, 2009 15:13:46 GMT -8
;D
One point:
Mhm. Sources, please.
CK
|
|
ErikWoods
Orchestrator
Radio Host Extraordinaire
Posts: 686
|
Post by ErikWoods on Oct 29, 2009 17:34:51 GMT -8
What about Canada, and the fact that its unsustainable system is consiberably relieved each year by the hundreds of thousands that come to the US for care because it's available here, but either not in CA, or not without ludicrous waiting lists. And if they do have to go to the States they have to pay out of the ass for any care they receive. No thanks! Personally speaking, my family and friends and their family and friends have had no issue with Canada's health care system. I like not having to pay for all of my daughters numerous hospital stays and prescriptions. I like that I didn't have to pay for my MRI a few years ago. Sure, I had to wait a month to get one done but at least I didn't have to take out a second mortgage to do so. I like that my parents didn't have to pay one single cent for the two separate occasions I had to spend a few weeks in hospital as a teenager with meningitis and severe strep throat. I can't imagine how much people have to spend in the US just to have a baby! -Erik-
|
|
|
Post by TJ on Oct 29, 2009 17:52:23 GMT -8
One of our ex neighbors (a woman my age) "forgot" to get insured beforehand....very unwise.
Many couples still live with grandpa and grandma because of it.
|
|
|
Post by Christian K on Oct 29, 2009 17:54:30 GMT -8
At a loss for words.
|
|
cheno
Conductor
Posts: 1,012
|
Post by cheno on Oct 29, 2009 18:00:25 GMT -8
I'm a little tired of blaming sick people for being sick and using that as an excuse not to do anything.
|
|
|
Post by TJ on Oct 29, 2009 18:06:23 GMT -8
Many sick people have friends or family or a church or some kind of community group who raise money for their care. There is no need for the government to step in and get in the people's business. People are more than able (and willing) to take care of their fellow man without the US government getting involved and playing Robin Hood, which I think was one of Brendan's main points?
Where do you stop with the free care? Should the community pay for everyone to get braces? Glases? Laser eye surgery? Even plastic surgery?
|
|
|
Post by Jon Broxton on Oct 29, 2009 18:25:38 GMT -8
Where do you stop with the free care? Should the community pay for everyone to get braces? Glases? Laser eye surgery? Even plastic surgery? Braces for people with maxillofacial problems, cleft palates or other oral deformities/problems: yes, absolutely. Laser eye surgery for people with glaucoma, cataracts, or things like that - absolutely. My mom has it done in England and it was absolutely necessary for her. Plastic surgery for burns victims, people sho have suffered facial injuries in accidents, boob jobs for women with breast cancer who had to have a mastextomy - yes, absolutely. Glasses, no. The eye tests and corrective lenses are free, but you pay for the frames. Boob jobs for porn stars: no. That kind of frivolous elective surgery isn't offered by the British service either.
|
|
|
Post by Craig Richard Lysy on Oct 29, 2009 18:36:52 GMT -8
"Many sick people have friends or family or a church or some kind of community group who raise money for their care. There is no need for the government to step in and get in the people's business. People are more than able (and willing) to take care of their fellow man without the US government getting involved and playing Robin Hood, which I think was one of Brendan's main points?"
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Read your history my friend! Again, I make a point your ignore. Urbanization destroyed your precious conservative paradigm that a man can independently support his family. Urbanization and industrialization subjugated people to the corporation, to employment by businesses whose capitalistic lust for profit led to exploitation. Vast numbers of workers not making a living wage overwhelmed charity and churches. Government stepped in under Teddy Roosevelt by necessity, to fill a void. In your quaint 18th century rural world, yes, small communities and churches supported their own, and God bless them! But my friend we live in the 21st century in a country of 350 million, numbers too vast for charity or churches to support. One fourth of all children in the US go to bed hungry! Obviously charity is not up to the task! Clearly, for a task this immense, government is required. Always remember, capitalism creates great wealth, yet it also creates great disparity and poverty. 1.5 percent of the US hold more wealth than the bottom 90% - do you get the point? How is that disparity defendable morally? This was the same ratio in France when they beheaded Louis XVIII.
Where do you stop with the free care? Should the community pay for everyone to get braces? Glasses? Laser eye surgery? Even plastic surgery?
Yes we are a social species, we take care of our own. On the battle field the precept is "we leave no man behind" a precept I honor, respect and extend - in society, we leave no fellow citizen behind. WE TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN! We lend a helping hand, we show compassion, we honor the teachings of the living Christ.
Braces yes! Why would I not want any human not to walk!, Glasses? Yes! Why would I not want any human not to see? Laser Eye Surgery? Yes if conventional therapy failed. Plastic surgery? Yes, for burn victims and victims of severe injury or mutilation.
I have as you asked, addressed all your points my friend, so you have evidence I do indeed listen to you!
Next round!
|
|
|
Post by TJ on Oct 29, 2009 18:50:51 GMT -8
Actually it was Chris who said you aren't listening, I made no such statement.
|
|
|
Post by Craig Richard Lysy on Oct 29, 2009 18:54:48 GMT -8
"Well of course they do. And if the government had been providing free cheeseburgers to seniors for the last 20 years and then decided to stop the program, seniors would be furiously shouting, "You can't take away our cheeseburgers - we'll starve to death!" This is the problem with government playing the role of sole-provider of anything. Also, we've been over how Medicare is much different from Universal Health Care on a level of scale and the additional complications that presents."
Medicare is the template for universal coverage friend. It is proven and we have good outcomes. My customers are happy! Why are you so against a basic conservative precept? Providing the consumer choice! Offer a public option and let your fellow citizens chose. What could be more American!
Quote:Experience matters and trumps ideology - one of life's laws. "Waaaaait just a second here. Let's say I'm a poor white person living in the worst part of Compton, rated as the 4th most dangerous city in America. The vast majority of people I would encounter on the streets would be Latino and many of them involved in illegal activity, high crime rates, and the like. If I relied only on my experience, I would be led to the conclusion that Latino people in general are bad or dangerous. So your 'life law' would make me a raging racist."
A most interesting counter! I concede the point. Well argued!
"And what about other people's experience that directly conflicts with yours? Did you read the article Chris linked to yet? What about that doctor's experience?"
Yes, Yes, I read the article. A singular view that is contrary to my experiences on the front line. I am not persuaded.
"The point is, experience alone cannot apply to a complex, large-scale system such as universal health coverage. Does it need to be a part of the discussion? Absolutely. Just like statistics, history, governmental comparison and the like need to also be a part of it - but relying on any one of those things alone to create a solution would be an exercise in ignorance."
Brendan, Brendan, Brendan, you are like an English Terrier - resolute and tenacious! A compliment!
Quote:We have tried your free market approach and it does not work. "No we haven't - government and insurance companies have perverted any kind of market forces on health care. Free market systems are most certainly not the main cause of our current health care troubles."
Ah, yes we have. Read your history books! Let's say from the 16th to 20th century, before insurance and before the rise of the socialist movement. Under capitalism, people paid for medical service. The rich got it, the poor, well too bad, I guess you just have to die. You have never replied to my query if you have read Dickens. Why to you avoid answering? Dickens provided a mirror that showed the ugly reflection of English capitalism. Everyone's formal education should read Dickens.
My point is, your method failed, miserably. Health care was the luxury of the wealthy. Working class people and the poor suffered and died early. Again read your history books, they will challenge your views. Western social history is far darker than you can possible imagine.
You see, I do listen to you, I concede a point when your argument is superior.
all the best, and, next round!
|
|
|
Post by Chris Tilton on Oct 29, 2009 20:25:21 GMT -8
I like that I didn't have to pay for my MRI a few years ago. Sure, I had to wait a month to get one done but at least I didn't have to take out a second mortgage to do so. I wouldn't have to pay a dime and there'd be no wait for an MRI at all. A friend of mine was in a hit and run accident and he had a concussion. He then went to the hospital and got an MRI within a couple hours. Insurance covered everything.
|
|
ErikWoods
Orchestrator
Radio Host Extraordinaire
Posts: 686
|
Post by ErikWoods on Oct 29, 2009 22:10:34 GMT -8
I like that I didn't have to pay for my MRI a few years ago. Sure, I had to wait a month to get one done but at least I didn't have to take out a second mortgage to do so. I wouldn't have to pay a dime and there'd be no wait for an MRI at all. A friend of mine was in a hit and run accident and he had a concussion. He then went to the hospital and got an MRI within a couple hours. Insurance covered everything. Well, as for something as serious as that we would also have an immediate MRI, HOWEVER, what if you friend DIDN'T have insurance. That's something we don't have to worry about here because from the day you are born you are covered... EVERYONE is! -Erik-
|
|
|
Post by Jockolantern on Oct 30, 2009 1:53:45 GMT -8
One fourth of all children in the US go to bed hungry! To echo an earlier Kuhni post: "Mhm. Sources, please."
|
|
|
Post by Craig Richard Lysy on Oct 30, 2009 5:17:02 GMT -8
To my Friend Erik,
A fact check reveals I overstated my figures. I should have referenced my sources first. No excuses. As requested, here is my source data from organizations fighting child hunger in America;
One of the most disturbing and extraordinary aspects of life in this very wealthy country is the persistence of hunger. The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) reported that in 2007: • 36.2 million people lived in households considered to be food insecure. • Of these 36.2 million, 23.8 million are adults (10.6 percent of all adults) and 12.4 million are children (16.9 percent of all children). • The number of people in the worst-off households increased to 11.9 from 10.8 in 2005. This increase in the number of people in the worst-off category is consistent with other studies and the Census Bureau poverty data, which show worsening conditions for the poorest Americans. • Black (22.2 percent) and Hispanic (20.1 percent) households experienced food insecurity at far higher rates than the national average. • The ten states with the highest food insecurity rates in 2007 were Mississippi, New Mexico, Texas, Arkansas, Maine, South Carolina, Georgia, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Missouri
Facts • More than 9 million children are estimated to be served by Feeding America, over 2 million of which are ages 5 and under, representing nearly 13 percent of all children under age 18 in the United States and over 72 percent of all children in poverty. • According to the USDA, an estimated 12.4 million children lived in food insecure (low food security and very low food security) households in 2007.[ii] • 8 states plus DC have more than 20 percent of children living in food insecure households, the states of Texas (23.58%) and Mississippi (22.84%) have the highest rates of children in households without consistent access to food.[iii] • The top four states with the highest rate of food insecure children are Texas, Mississippi, Arizona, and New Mexico.iii • The top five states with the lowest rate of food insecure children are New Hampshire, Massachusetts, North Dakota, Virginia, and Connecticut.iii • Proper nutrition is vital to the growth and development of children, particularly for low-income children. 62 percent of all client households with children under the age of 18 participated in a school lunch program, but only 13 percent participated in a summer feeding program that provides free food when school is out.i • 51 percent of client households with children under the age of 3 participated in the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC).i • Nearly 41 percent of emergency food providers in the Feeding America network reported "many more children in the summer" being served by their programs.i • Emergency food assistance plays a vital role in the lives of low-income families. In 2002, more than half of the non elderly families that accessed a food pantry at least once during the year had children under the age of 18.[iv] • 13.3 million or approximately 18 percent of children in the U.S. live in poverty. The rate of poverty for children under 18 remains higher than those aged 18- to- 64 and for those aged 65 and over.[v] • Research indicates that even mild under nutrition experienced by young children during critical periods of growth impacts the behavior of children, their school performance, and their overall cognitive development.[vi] • In fiscal year 2007, 49% of food stamp recipients are children.[vii] • During the 2007 federal fiscal year, 17.9 million low-income children received free or reduced-price meals through the National School Lunch Program. Unfortunately, just under 2 million of these same income-eligible children participated in the Summer Food Service Program that same year.[viii]
To my conservative critics, the fact that this exists in the US is damning and underscores the disparity, inequity and deprivation in our country. Add to this the findings that 44,000 people die each year for lack of medical coverage and you understand my position and the progressive agenda.
To Hook, TJ, Chris and Brendan, since your article is so highly valued, please pick the three top points in which you agree and I would be glad to counter.
TGIF!
|
|
|
Post by Craig Richard Lysy on Oct 30, 2009 11:06:46 GMT -8
A counter article for my conservative opponents to consider. www.pnhp.org/news/2007/november/why_a_singlepayer_h.php Here is an excerpt from the Council On Foreign Relations; "Rival Healthcare Models Elsewhere in the world, healthcare systems are much less reliant on private sector support--and much less expensive. For example, the U.S. system costs 83 percent more per capita than the Canadian system, where public funds collected through taxes pay for up to 70 percent of healthcare coverage. A number of East Asian systems also enjoy high quality of care for a much lower cost. An article in Cambridge University's Journal of Social Policy looks at what it calls the "remarkable" performance of healthcare systems in Hong Kong, Malaysia, and Singapore, where the authors argue the legacy of British colonialism has encouraged a strong state role in the healthcare system. Taiwan's system is commonly singled out as a model for cost-effectiveness. An article in Health Affairs examines Taiwan's National Health Insurance (or NHI) system, implemented in 1995, which provides comprehensive universal health coverage to Taiwan's roughly 23 million citizens. The authors conclude that savings from the NHI system largely offset the incremental cost of covering the previously uninsured. Taiwanese are assessed around $20 a month for full health coverage. In contrast, Americans pay roughly $500 per month, according to data in a report by McKinsey." Guys, single payer works - better outcomes and more cost effective. We are way behind here. Feedback guys?
|
|