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Post by Chris Tilton on Sept 29, 2008 20:57:35 GMT -8
(Just came home from dinner and have been reading the rest of the thread since I last checked in - I don't have anything to contribute to the discussion right now, but I just wanted to commend everyone for being intelligent and civil - keep it up guys! If only we had AJT around to instigate irrational anger (and hilarity)
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MikeP
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Posts: 537
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Post by MikeP on Sept 30, 2008 6:25:26 GMT -8
Will it though? I don't know, which is why I'm asking I understand the basic principles about inflation, but I am unsure to EXACTLY where this 700 billion dollars would go. I don't think it is as simple as economy = economy + 700 billion This bill will essentially do exactly that: US economy = US economy + 700 billion! The Fed will 'print' up to 700 billion more dollars that as of right now does not exist. This is why inflation would occur... because there will be 700 billion more dollars in circulation that isn't backed up by anything substantial. It's funny money. It's diluting the power of a single dollar. Funny money isn't all bad, as it allows for tremendous growth. Our economy essentially runs on this funny money (aka the credit based economy), but injecting too much too quickly can be bad news. Isn't the money coming from taxes, not made up money though? If so, would that really be inflation, or would it just be less government spending of out tax money on other stuff? My understanding is also not perfect. However... Right now the taxes we pay isn't enough to even pay off our current expenditures. Hence, our deficit. Adding 700 billion dollars is only going to make it worse. So to answer your question, NO, our tax dollars will not pay for this unless: a) taxes are raised b) 350+ billion dollars of cuts are made c) this crazy scheme works, and there is a mechanism in the bill to ensure the govt gets paid back. Otherwise, any part of the 350+ billion that doesn't get paid goes into our debt.
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Post by Chris Tilton on Sept 30, 2008 8:24:30 GMT -8
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MikeP
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Post by MikeP on Sept 30, 2008 9:59:08 GMT -8
Checking it out, Chris. I liked this article: www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/29/miron.bailout/index.htmlThe article makes several good points. First, the credit freeze is partly from companies waiting to see if they can get more from the govt than they could privately. Second, if these loans had the 'hidden value' lawmakers are trying to make us believe they did, we'd probably see alot of people wanting to buy them up while they are cheap. The fact that no one wants them suggests the people that have them feel they are worth far less than they let on. Finally, this will encourage all sorts of corruption as companies try to get as large a piece of the pie as they can.
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Post by Jon Broxton on Sept 30, 2008 11:33:26 GMT -8
I think that part of the problem I have with the 'no-bailout' thought process is that, unlike other people, it never occurs to me that people will use the situaton for their own nefarious advantage. I guess I naively think that everyone involved in this will do what's best for the country, irrespective of whether it's personally good for them.
The rather pessimistic comments about "it'll all just happen again", and MikeP's recent post about it encouraging corruption sort of made me stop and think. I forget that there are unscrupulous people around.
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Post by indy2003 on Sept 30, 2008 11:40:17 GMT -8
An actual quote from an actual U.S. Representative when I asked him why he voted against the bailout: "Well, it was a hard decision. I didn't really know what to think about it, so I was conflicted. When I am conflicted, I put aside all other influences and just fall back on my basic beliefs: keep government small, and encourage personal responsibility. So yes, I felt I should vote against it."
That left me bewildered for a while.
Back at ya later
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Post by natedogg23 on Sept 30, 2008 12:35:37 GMT -8
I would be curious to hear more as to why you were 'bewildered for a while'...
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Post by indy2003 on Sept 30, 2008 12:38:46 GMT -8
I would be curious to hear more as to why you were 'bewildered for a while'... Because it sounded a bit like I was speaking to a GOP-programmed computer who didn't actually bother to take the time to look at the complexity of the issue. I'm not bewildered by his feelings on how government should be run, just the mind-bogglingly simplistic manner in which he decided to put them into practice in this situation. Back at ya later
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MikeP
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Posts: 537
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Post by MikeP on Sept 30, 2008 13:45:35 GMT -8
I appreciate that he recognized the bill did not follow the principles the voters voted him in for, and therefore voted against it.
The bill could be very complex... but at the same time, this bill goes against basic American principles. Sometimes, that's enough.
Edit: +485.29 rally? The third highest ever?
OK, I doubt we have seen the end of this. More banks are almost certain to close, and we still have the issue of the credit freeze to address. However, I think it's important to note that those peddling this bill would have led everyone to believe that inaction would have made a day like today impossible.
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Post by Joseph Bat on Sept 30, 2008 16:05:22 GMT -8
I just want to say that I find it amazing that Lou Dobbs on CNN is constantly calling this a victory for the American people. That this is what all Americans wanted. This fat shit is full of it.
Another thing he said is that while, yes if nothing is done it will hurt a lot of people, but only some of us. Maybe for someone like Mr. Dobbs who does well on CNN and owns a 300 acre horse farm. I think that speaks volumes about the fundamental problem going on in America right now. Does anyone care about their fellow neighbour? This is also why there is no universal health care in America, in my opinion, and why there will NEVER be. Most people don't care.
Markets did better today because people are hopeful the next vote for the bill will pass. So you are already seeing the early positives of what this bill will do!
Joe
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Post by Chris Tilton on Sept 30, 2008 17:25:20 GMT -8
I just want to say that I find it amazing that Lou Dobbs on CNN is constantly calling this a victory for the American people. That this is what all Americans wanted. This fat shit is full of it. It absolutely is a victory for the American people that the government didn't spend 700 billion (an apparently arbitrary number) of money that doesn't exist, forgo due process on any of these big companies, and take an unprecedented amount of control. It's going to hurt even more with the bailout the way it was. It's obvious to us all now that the bill in its current form was an irrational, knee-jerk reaction. It is a bill that the rich people in Washington were trying to pass without giving anyone time to properly examine it and think about what was actually being presented. And I certainly hope there won't be universal healthcare. I don't want my tax dollars going to some shitty program run by the federal government. I find it interesting that you speak so fervently on what's best for America, yet you don't even live here. It's entirely possible that that is a contributing factor, but I think most are seeing it as bargain deals on stock that are going to inevitably go up.
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Post by Joseph Bat on Sept 30, 2008 17:32:18 GMT -8
Chris, I think in this situation you know very well what effects America effects many people who may not live there. And sue me if I actually care what happens to people who are hurt by what is going on.
Joe
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MikeP
Orchestrator
Posts: 537
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Post by MikeP on Sept 30, 2008 17:38:41 GMT -8
Agree that the stock market going back up was largely fueled by the upcoming Senate vote. I missed the articles when I was looking at the ticker. Investors buying low also played a notable part as well.
Disagree with this being early positives of the bill itself... right now it is all, and only, emotion. I've spoken my piece on this already, but eventually this bill will have to answer to reality instead of just emotion... and I'm very worried about when that time comes.
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Post by natedogg23 on Sept 30, 2008 20:14:11 GMT -8
Jens, still waiting for a follow up comment to your previous comment based on a statement I made......
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Post by muckle dabuckle on Oct 1, 2008 6:57:54 GMT -8
Did anyone else see that the bailout bill, as many as a few days ago, had $140 billion of the $700 billion designated to go to ACORN! (and similar groups). Which happens to encourage poor people to own houses (not to mention engage in voter fraud). It's enough to make a grown man lawl! Most likely one of the many reasons it was voted down. www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEnjscstlicNow the senate may vote today on their version of the bill to put pressure on the house. Which, if passed would be meaningless being the house has to originate bills that raise money (unless the house can pass on defeated bills to the senate? In which case it would have to go back to the house and then the senate again anyway). And now some of the fear-mongering stories used by politicians to vote for this bill have been debunked by the "victims" themselves: www.sonicdrivein.com/Weren't we hearing that Sonic can't get loans anymore so we should support the bailout? Then Sonic releases a press release saying BS. Lulz. This whole thing is being rushed.
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