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Post by Joseph Bat on Sept 29, 2008 13:41:12 GMT -8
You're playing the blame game, Chris. Not seeing the real importance of what is going on. I understand you are upset about having to hand over $700 billion, but $1.2trillion loss in the markets today. Just one day. Suddenly, $700billion doesn't seem like a lot.
So you're stand is simply don't do anything. That's it. Not really clear here on what your thinking is here on a solution.
Joe
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cheno
Conductor
Posts: 1,012
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Post by cheno on Sept 29, 2008 13:49:02 GMT -8
You're playing the blame game, Chris. Not seeing the real importance of what is going on. So you're stand is simply don't do anything. That's it. Not really clear here on what your thinking is here on a solution. Joe Would you say short term relief is more important than the long term strength of the economy?
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Post by Joseph Bat on Sept 29, 2008 13:50:17 GMT -8
This is my opinion. I would say what is going on today is more important than tomorrow, since today effects tomorrow. I'm not saying to completely ignore tomorrow.
Joe
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Post by Jon Broxton on Sept 29, 2008 13:51:51 GMT -8
Working in the financial industry, I have been watching this closely (for obvious reasons), and I am in favor of the bailout, and here's why:
Firstly, a couple of points.
1. The banks and mortgage companies absolutely acted immorrally and unethically in their lending practices. I WORK for a bank associated with one of the mortgage companies directly responsible, and I can see this. 2. It absolutely sucks that the US people have to fork over billions of dollars in tax money to repair this damage. It shouldn't have come to this, but it did. 3. I would be 100% in favor of criminal negligence charges being brought up against the fat cats who perpetrated this. They fleeced the US public, and thought they were going to get away with it.
However, the bailout HAS to happen, for a two main reasons:
If the no vote stays, the US will be facing its biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression. Stock prices will fall, the value of the dollar will fall further, which will in turn result in decreased trade, closures, job losses, and increased inflation. The fat cats will take a shot in the arm - of course they will - but also your average joe in the street will be severely financially impacted by this. Pension funds, 401ks, investments, all these things which regular people working regular jobs rely on will cease to be profitable. People's life savings will be eaten away.
More banks and financial institutions will go under. We've already lost WaMu and Wachovia, Lehman, Morgan Stanley... AIG is on its last legs. Northern Rock and HBOS in England. The loss of these organizations effectively leaves four 'superbanks' in the USA - Bank of America, Chase, Wells Fargo and Citibank. If the no vote stays, the threat of even MORE banks failing is increased dramatically. This is bad for the market and the economy, and leaves the door wide open for more mismanagement.
Of course this is an appalling situation. No-one wants this. But really, the bailout is the lesser of two evils, because doing nothing, and letting things just 'take their natural course' will be much much worse. At least, with the bailout, the financial markets will begin to regain stability; with increased oversight and regulation, there can be assurances that this kind of thing won't happen again, and they can start slowly bringing things back to normal. With no bail out, things could get to a stage where they are irreparable.
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Post by Joseph Bat on Sept 29, 2008 13:52:58 GMT -8
Well said, Jon.
Joe
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Post by Jangles on Sept 29, 2008 14:00:43 GMT -8
I am in favor whatever fucks us the least. I really don't know much about this kind of stuff, but I thought the bailout was also neccesary and the better thing to do.
It seems like that for a lot of the opposing side, the main argument is "they deserve it" or "If I had that money instead..." or "thats my tax money LOL!!!", which is completely retarded IMO. It's not some damn quest for vengeance for the "greedy evil bastards" on Wall Street - it's the worlds economy in the balance here! A view like Cheno's perfectly summarizes what I am talking about, and I really do think that arguments like that are completely fucking retarded - no offense.
Stocks already feel a shit load today (more than September 11th), and who knows what tomorrow will bring. If the bailout had one thing going, it was a bit of restored confidence at least.
And meh - I have savings, checkings, CDs, and credit with Wachovia.
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Post by Jon Broxton on Sept 29, 2008 14:02:58 GMT -8
And meh - I have savings, checkings, CDs, and credit with Wachovia. I think you mean Citi
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Post by Jon Broxton on Sept 29, 2008 14:20:14 GMT -8
The bottom line is this:
With the bailout, the value of the dollar will go down, more financial institutions will likely fail, stock prices will be low, and the US taxpayer will have to fork out billions of dollars to save an economy which was screwed by unethical mortgage lenders.
Without the bailout, it will be WORSE THAN THAT!
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cheno
Conductor
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Post by cheno on Sept 29, 2008 14:21:29 GMT -8
Without the bailout, it will be WORSE THAN THAT! ...in the short term.
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Post by Joseph Bat on Sept 29, 2008 14:27:32 GMT -8
Cheno, where are you getting this from? Not that we all wouldn't want that to happen, but you are clearly seeing something we are apparently missing....
Joe
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Post by Jon Broxton on Sept 29, 2008 14:34:50 GMT -8
Cheno, you don't get it do you? If we don't act NOW, there might not BE a long term. This is about saving the economy TODAY, not simply hoping that everything will rectify itself in the future. You can't make long-term plans if your short-term inactivity makes your long term goal unreachable.
I'm sure you wouldn't be saying that if you were one of the MILLIONS of people in immediate danger of losing their job, home, savings, or pension.
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Post by Chris Tilton on Sept 29, 2008 14:35:08 GMT -8
The bottom line is this: With the bailout, the value of the dollar will go down, more financial institutions will likely fail, stock prices will be low, and the US taxpayer will have to fork out billions of dollars to save an economy which was screwed by unethical mortgage lenders. Without the bailout, it will be WORSE THAN THAT! What is "worse than that?" What's going to happen? We're going to have to be smart again? Inventive? Have some ingenuity? Much of this is the result of the US slowly becoming nothing but a consumer. It's time the US goes back to what it USED to do when it was successful, and that's actually PRODUCING something that the rest of the world wants.
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Post by Jon Broxton on Sept 29, 2008 14:41:38 GMT -8
What is "worse than that?" What's going to happen? We're going to have to be smart again? Inventive? Have some ingenuity? Much of this is the result of the US slowly becoming nothing but a consumer. It's time the US goes back to what it USED to do when it was successful, and that's actually PRODUCING something that the rest of the world wants. I entirely agree, but that's a side issue to the larger point. You can't produce things to sell to the rest of the world if the mortgage companies are so financially bankrupt they can't afford to lend the farmers and businesses who produce things, or if the dollar is so weak that it's cheaper to buy from everywhere else than the US, or if stock prices are so low that no-one wants to invest in US services. In a way you've just made a perfect point FOR the bailout - with a stronger economy immediately, the US can start making progress towards the success it used to have quicker, rather than having to wait to "see what will happen" with no bailout.
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Post by Chris Tilton on Sept 29, 2008 14:44:46 GMT -8
In a way you've just made a perfect point FOR the bailout - with a stronger economy immediately, the US can start making progress towards the success it used to have quicker, rather than having to wait to "see what will happen" with no bailout. No we won't. We'll continue to be idiots.
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Post by Jon Broxton on Sept 29, 2008 14:49:41 GMT -8
Well, that's open for debate. We can only hope that, in time, the people who have the best interests of the country at heart will be the ones in charge, so that they can start doing the things you suggested. If we get another lot of 'get rich quick and screw everyone else' merchants, then this will all happen again in 20 years.
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