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Post by Armin on Jan 23, 2005 20:50:41 GMT -8
Ok, we had number 1 already:
Hook - You Are the Pan: flute solo is from Agnes of God (George Delerue)
Number 2:
Hook - Track 16, The Ultimate War, 7:50-7:55: that fanfare is 100% by somebody else. When I hear it in the original piece I will let you know.
Number 3:
Hook - Track 17, Farewell Neverland, 2:20-4:10 is the choir from Edward Scissorhands.
Number 4:
Hook - Track 17, Farewell Neverland, 4:20-4:40 is by Claude Debussy (La Mer, Prelude Prelude a l'Apres-Midi d'une Faune, anyone you want)
Number 5:
Hook - Track 17, Farewell Neverland, 5:20-5:40, Edward Scissorhands strikes again.
Afterwards he is ripping himself off with Home Alone, but I guess that is ok.
Anybody please feel free to join. I will update this thread as I come across more blatant rip-offs other people don't want to acknowledge because it's John Williams, but keep bashing other composers.
P.S. I like Williams and the music he ripped off from other people. I actually think sometimes it sounds better in the context he inserted it in. It's just Jens E. Dietrich was being an ass and asked for it.
P.P.S. I also like Jens E. Dietrich. ;D
P.P.P.S. Should we start a best-ever rip-off thread? That would go to James Horner for Willow (= Robert Schumann 3rd Symphony). Damn is that one good! Even a lot better than the original. ;D ;D
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ErikWoods
Orchestrator
Radio Host Extraordinaire
Posts: 686
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Post by ErikWoods on Jan 23, 2005 21:30:15 GMT -8
Ok, we had number 1 already: Hook - You Are the Pan: flute solo is from Agnes of God (George Delerue) I didn't want to reply but Armin seems to confuse "rip off" and "sounding similar." Rip off is "note-for-note, bar-for-bar". Sounding similar is the example you gave above. Delerue uses a slow flute solo so automatically that means rip off when Williams uses a flute solo? I'm sorry, the melodies aren't note-for-note rips... hell, Williams' melody is very different. Number 2: Hook - Track 16, The Ultimate War, 7:50-7:55: that fanfare is 100% by somebody else. When I hear it in the original piece I will let you know. I'm curious about this one. Number 3: Hook - Track 17, Farewell Neverland, 2:20-4:10 is the choir from Edward Scissorhands. Again, Williams' uses a childrens choir so that automatically means that Williams is "ripping off" Elfman. I'm just wondering if you could point to the exact track and time in Elfman's score that Williams is ripping off. Number 4: Hook - Track 17, Farewell Neverland, 4:20-4:40 is by Claude Debussy (La Mer, Prelude Prelude a l'Apres-Midi d'une Faune, anyone you want) Not familiar with that classical work. Number 5: Hook - Track 17, Farewell Neverland, 5:20-5:40, Edward Scissorhands strikes again. Please... Afterwards he is ripping himself off with Home Alone, but I guess that is ok. The first four notes, yes. He also does this with the theme to Amistad which can be found in the beginning of his theme to The Patriot. Anyway, I hate playing this who ripped off who game. Every composer is influenced by some classical work or classical composer. I mean, are we going to start talking about Davis and his John Adams influences in The Matrix? Why do we have to keep on beating a dead horse with this nonsense? The real problem here is the fact that director's get so attached to there temp track that very talented composers like Trevor Jones are stuck "ripping off" other works (ie: Around The World in 80 Days) because he absolutely has no choice but to quit or do what the director tells him to do. That's the problem. Composers would love nothing more then to have free reign on a picture but unfortunately that isn't reality. The director is in charge and if you hear the temp track bleeding through the score then I assure you that 99% of the time, it's the director's fault. But that's another story... Anyway, if you want to keep updating this thread, Armin, have a great time! -Erik- |
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Post by Armin on Jan 24, 2005 6:36:22 GMT -8
Actually this thread is already quite boring to do...
BUT the places I pointed out have a lot more in common than just the "slow flute" and "choir" thing. The character is the same, the chords are maybe not identical, but almost the same, the orchestration is dead on.
Anyway, I never liked doing this. Sometimes it's even silly. Like Goldsmith, who very often took the tiniest bit from a classical piece and made something great out of it. I simply didn't like the Trevor Jones bashing.
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Post by christopher on Jan 24, 2005 9:05:53 GMT -8
Williams also took some ideas from Carl Orff's music from Carmina Burana to write some of his olympics music--I think the song is called "Enter the Champions" or something like that. The last little part is nearly identical. Interestly, James Horner borrowed the idea for a track on "Glory." I can't remember what it's called, but it's the third to last track on the album, and starts rights after Col. Shaw gets shot. The last part of that song is also VERY similar to Enter the Champions and Carmina Burana.
-Chris
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Mac Styran
Ghostwriter
Darth Benedict's Holy Handgranade
Posts: 231
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Post by Mac Styran on Jan 24, 2005 9:44:29 GMT -8
I didn't want to reply but Armin seems to confuse "rip off" and "sounding similar." Rip off is "note-for-note, bar-for-bar". Erik ... there are very little examples of a true note-for-note copying. It's common to declare extreme likenesses "rip offs". Example: Did Badelt rip-off Goldsmith's "The Edge" in "Time Machine"? It sounds VERY alike (although I like Badelt's "version" better, I must confess ... it's more easy on the ear). Did Tyler's "Dune" rip off Rabin's "Deep Blue Sea"? Yes. Erm ... you know ... apart from two changed notes ... Anyhoo ... the term "rip off" is used pretty correctly here, IMO. |
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Post by Jens Dietrich on Jan 24, 2005 11:53:13 GMT -8
I like Williams and the music he ripped off from other people. I actually think sometimes it sounds better in the context he inserted it in. It's just Jens E. Dietrich was being an ass and asked for it. And I stand by my original point. There's a huge difference between inserting a bit of classical music into your own composition -- perhaps changing a note or two, orchestration or at least context to make it your own -- and simply copying a fairly recent score note for note. Hell, Jones doesn't even change the context of most of the music he's copying. He's using it in precisely the same way JNH used it! Williams doesn't just copy entire pieces by other composers. In Around the World in 80 Days, Jones DID. This is why I wrote None of the Williams rip-offs you cited even come close to that level of blatantness. In fact, I dare say you'd be hard pressed to find any that did. |
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Post by franz_conrad on Jan 24, 2005 12:45:05 GMT -8
Did Tyler's "Dune" rip off Rabin's "Deep Blue Sea"? Yes. Erm ... you know ... apart from two changed notes ... Unless I hear it from Brian Tyler's lips (or his website), I'll never believe that. I find it hard to believe he imagined what he'd write for Dune for 10 years, only to find inspiration in Rabin's music for a shark movie. Just like I'll never believe Debney consciously imitated Horner's Glory for The Passion. He has described in interview his process of discovering that cue, and it indicates nothing untoward. |
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Post by TomaszRokita on Jan 24, 2005 14:52:05 GMT -8
My candidate for the most blatant rip-off ever: "Bishop's Countdown" is copied exactly note-for-note from "Battle of Yavin"'s ending crescendo from Star Wars. Maybe there are in film music more note-for-note rip-offs to be found, but the overall fame and admiration for "Bishop's Countdown" makes it for me the most shocking rip-off ever heard...
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Post by Jens Dietrich on Jan 25, 2005 10:05:26 GMT -8
My candidate for the most blatant rip-off ever: "Bishop's Countdown" is copied exactly note-for-note from "Battle of Yavin"'s ending crescendo from Star Wars. And originally it's by Gustav Holst. Go figure. |
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Post by Armin on Jan 25, 2005 13:09:27 GMT -8
I like being supported by Jens better... ;D
The Home Alone thread just reminded me... The part where they oversleep is from The Nutcracker (Tchaikowsky). Now that one IS very blatant, and even really famous.
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Post by nick on Jan 26, 2005 16:09:21 GMT -8
Interesting. Anyone who uses "John Williams" and "rip-off" in the same sentence opens themselves up to put downs and dismissals, but it's still fun for people to mention Horner 's reuses until the end of time.
Williams does it, and he's an artist paying homage to others. Horner does it, and he's a hack....that's part of why I can't stand Williams- the public's perception of him. You won't find me starting threads about that, as I pretty much keep that to myself: don't want all that hate unleashed towards me, you know.
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Post by franz_conrad on Jan 27, 2005 3:15:31 GMT -8
Who is the YOU that ASKED FOR this thread?  |
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Post by Kevin on Jan 27, 2005 9:43:37 GMT -8
Interesting. Anyone who uses "John Williams" and "rip-off" in the same sentence opens themselves up to put downs and dismissals, but it's still fun for people to mention Horner 's reuses until the end of time. Williams does it, and he's an artist paying homage to others. Horner does it, and he's a hack....that's part of why I can't stand Williams- the public's perception of him. You won't find me starting threads about that, as I pretty much keep that to myself: don't want all that hate unleashed towards me, you know. And I wonder why that perception exists....  Like Jens said there are carbon copies, rip-offs, stylistic imitations, homages, coincidental similarities....and many other divisions that cannot be lumped into one category. Music is a fluid art....just because two pieces of music were influenced by something else doesn't mean they immediately stand on the same level of artistic creativity (or uncreativity.) Perhaps the reason why Horner gets picked on more is simply because he deserves it for being so blatant with his "sources" (including himself.) |
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Post by Hook on Jan 28, 2005 19:07:10 GMT -8
The Home Alone thread just reminded me... The part where they oversleep is from The Nutcracker (Tchaikowsky). Now that one IS very blatant, and even really famous. How about... NO?  Home Alone is an obvious example of a movie temp tracked to infinity on other people's work. What's great about it is how Williams goes around that and makes the same style, the same general feel follow his lead and creates his own music while pleasing the producers and the director. It's not my favorite by any means, but I really admire it based on just that. As Jens and Kevin have pointed out, there are many variants on this topic. Holst's The Planets plays a big role in Star Wars and Gladiator but I wouldn't call it a terrible rip-off. Willow, on the other hand, well... There's a scene in the film where the characters become pigs. Hint: I don't think it has much to do with the witch. ;D |
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Post by Pawel Stroinski on Feb 4, 2005 10:18:50 GMT -8
Williams also took some ideas from Carl Orff's music from Carmina Burana to write some of his olympics music--I think the song is called "Enter the Champions" or something like that. The last little part is nearly identical. Interestly, James Horner borrowed the idea for a track on "Glory." I can't remember what it's called, but it's the third to last track on the album, and starts rights after Col. Shaw gets shot. The last part of that song is also VERY similar to Enter the Champions and Carmina Burana. -Chris You mean Charging Fort Wagner? The piece's O Fortuna all the way... |
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Home Alone is an obvious example of a movie temp tracked to infinity on other people's work. What's great about it is how Williams goes around that and makes the same style, the same general feel follow his lead and creates his own music while pleasing the producers and the director. It's not my favorite by any means, but I really admire it based on just that.